Understanding how our childhood experiences shape us into the adults we become is a complex journey, often requiring deep introspection and sometimes professional guidance. The latest episode of “Why Am I Like This?” dives into this intricate topic, exploring the profound influence of early life experiences on our behaviors and choices in adulthood. Hosts Michaela Beaver, a psychiatric nurse practitioner, and Laura Wood, a trauma therapist, offer listeners a unique blend of professional insight and personal storytelling. They navigate the realms of trauma, therapy, and personal growth, emphasizing the importance of empathy and self-awareness in overcoming past adversities.
The episode begins by delving into the personal journeys of Michaela and Laura, illustrating how unexpected life events steered them toward careers in mental health. Both women highlight the significant role of childhood experiences in shaping their professional paths, underscoring the idea that our early years can profoundly influence the directions we take later in life. Michaela shares her transition from aspiring to work in neonatal care to finding fulfillment in psychiatric nursing, a journey driven by personal challenges and a calling to support others in navigating mental health struggles. Similarly, Laura’s path to becoming a trauma therapist is marked by her desire to heal and help others through their emotional turmoil.
Central to the episode is the concept of adaptive information processing, which Michaela and Laura explore in depth. They explain how learning from experiences, rather than merely reacting, can lead to healthier outcomes and personal growth. The discussion highlights the critical importance of processing information in a regulated state, contrasting it with the detrimental effects of interpreting events from a dysregulated, fight-or-flight perspective. This exploration is enriched with real-life examples, such as parenting a child with ADHD, where understanding and empathy are essential tools for fostering emotional growth.
Michaela and Laura also shed light on how sensory perceptions can be conditioned by trauma, leading to misinterpretations of danger. They discuss the role of therapy, particularly Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing (EMDR), in helping individuals heal from past traumas and achieve self-actualization. By utilizing grounding techniques, individuals can learn to manage triggers and remain present, a crucial step in regaining control during distressing moments. This part of the episode emphasizes the necessity of finding personalized tools for emotional regulation, reinforcing the idea that healing is a deeply personal journey.
The episode challenges the traditional linear model of Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, proposing a more dynamic approach to fulfilling our basic and higher-level needs. Michaela and Laura suggest that while the hierarchy provides a useful framework, the path to self-fulfillment is not always straightforward. Instead, it can be more fluid, resembling a wheel where various needs are met at different times, depending on individual circumstances and growth stages.
Throughout the episode, Michaela and Laura encourage listeners to engage with their own growth journeys, inviting them to explore their vulnerabilities and identities. They create a space for understanding and connection, allowing listeners to relate to the complexities of human behavior. By sharing personal stories and insights, the hosts foster a deeper understanding of what shapes us and how we can navigate the challenges of being human.
In conclusion, “Why Am I Like This?” offers a compelling exploration of childhood’s impact on our adult selves, blending professional expertise with personal narrative. Michaela and Laura’s discussion provides valuable insights into trauma, therapy, and personal growth, highlighting the transformative power of self-awareness and empathy. Whether you’re seeking to understand your own behaviors or looking for ways to support others, this episode offers a wealth of knowledge and inspiration for the journey toward healing and self-actualization.
Read the full transcript
Laura: 0:03
Hello and welcome to. Why Am I Like this? The podcast for those who didn’t get enough hugs as a child? I’m Laura Wood and I’m a trauma therapist.
Michaela: 0:12
Hi and I’m Michaela Beaver. I’m a psychiatric nurse practitioner.
Laura: 0:16
So, Michaela, why are we doing this podcast?
Michaela: 0:21
I am so glad that you asked. We want to help you understand yourself a bit better, how the things you learned about yourself and the world and childhood are still affecting you today. We want to figure out why are we like this, those random things about ourselves that we might wonder about, like why am I so jumpy? Why am I so anxious? Why do I take everything personally? Why are my thoughts so negative? Why do I have to? Why do I feel like I have to fix everything all the time?
Laura: 0:49
Yes, and today we’re talking about us. We’re talking why are we like this, as in you and me, when we’re going to try to answer the following questions why do we do what we do, how do we become more aware of what drives our behaviors, and what else can we do to have more control over our actions? So hopefully, those last two are going to have a little bit more impact on our listeners than we’re trying to work out our own stuff on the podcast. But yeah, let’s just start talking about what. About you? What is your thing? Why do you do what you do?
Michaela: 1:27
that’s a really good question. So I I see a lot of clients that are trying to like figure their lives out and I get you know, I’ve talked a lot with my student as well about, like, how I got here. And if you would have asked me honestly, like 20 years ago, that I was going to be in mental health, I would have you know, I would have said that you’re crazy. You know, like that was not my thing. I had a plan. I was going to go back and go to be an NP and go work for this orthopedist doctor back in Illinois and that that was going to be that right.
Michaela: 2:03
I thought surgery was super cool and just life um went in different directions. I ended up as a you know, working in the ER in like rural Iowa and, um, there was such an underserved mental health like outpatient need and my friend was, like go back, come, come back to school with me, like come, get your psych NP. And I was like sure, let’s do it. Well, then she ended up not doing it and then I ended up doing it and I couldn’t see my life going any other way. Like I, I love being able to help people in this way and I feel like it’s just really become my calling and it’s the calling. I didn’t really see that was there, but you know I’m really glad that I ended up here.
Laura: 2:56
That’s so cool. So you didn’t like you weren’t six years old, saying I want to be a psychiatric nurse practitioner.
Michaela: 3:04
No, actually I wanted to do a psychiatric nurse practitioner. No, actually I wanted to do neonatal. When I was like young, like babies and my first you know I’m in nursing school and I go to the like OB ward and my I my teacher was like are you okay? You’re like white as a ghost. And I was like I don’t know what to do with this tiny little human being. You’re like white as a ghost and I was like I don’t know what to do with this tiny little human being. I had no clue. They were just I. We didn’t have a lot of like young babies in my family or I wasn’t drawn to being around them for some reason, and yeah, so nope, not, that was not for me, that’s so wild, that’s great.
Laura: 3:40
So when you transitioned into mental health, like what is what’s the most surprising thing for you? That you know that this turned out to be your calling. Like that, this turned out to be your thing.
Michaela: 3:53
Well, you know, growing up, my mom always said that I was. They always called me the peacemaker, and I’m pretty sure I’m. I know you’re not like. You may not be like a big Enneagram person, but I’m pretty sure I’m a nine. I know you’re not like, you may not be like a big Enneagram person, but I’m pretty sure I’m a nine. And um, and I didn’t see that. I didn’t really see that. You know, if I went into mental health, I went into healthcare, I think, because my dad had a, you know, big accident and in in my childhood and um, that really set me in this path, um, but I think, like, um, I think that I, I w, I like, looking back, I should have seen that. You know there was a lot of like, my uncles had substance use disorders and you know, the more I learned about like mental health and like substance use, I was like, oh, this makes sense for me.
Michaela: 4:44
You know, like I understand why I was called to this and I just didn’t really know it. And then, um, I have a almost seven year old and he has ADHD and I’ve really made my life’s work about him, about helping him grow, about being the best parent that I can for him. I’m going to get emotional about that, but you know, I think that like it’s hard and it’s challenging and I tell my patients all the time that I’m walking this road with you because I work with so many parents with kids that are struggling with ADHD and oppositional defiance and not knowing how to parent these kids that are just so strong wills, and I walk the road with them and I’m trying, I try to help them along the way as I work through the things myself.
Laura: 5:32
Yeah, well, that’s so great, like that you get to connect with your patients on that level. You know what I mean. Like I think, as a patient, I want to go in and know that the person I’m talking to like really understands what I’m going through. Like, how many times do we feel like we’re not with someone who is giving us the time that we need or we’re not with someone who is really listening to us when we’re trying to get healthcare?
Michaela: 6:03
I hear that a lot and I hear and I get a lot of kids. I see a lot of kids that end up medicated for something that doesn’t necessarily, in my opinion, need medication. Now, I do believe that medication can help and you know, when they’re being prescribed these things, that’s not necessarily the wrong choice. Prescribed these things, that’s not necessarily the wrong choice. It’s just that I think that when we’re dealing with kids, a lot of times and maybe this is something you see too but parents want to fix the child, but what we can’t do is control another human being’s behavior. We can’t make them choose good choices, we can’t make them do something different. We have to understand what’s motivating them to act in the way that they’re acting, so that we can support the cause of it, not the behavior.
Michaela: 6:55
And I know that you know sometimes that parents feel like they’re giving into their kid or they’re letting them get away with things. But I just oftentimes, if we can really understand what’s going on for our kid and support them at that level, then then we can stop the behavior before it starts. And that’s not always not every kid but like, but certain kids sometimes. There is that opportunity to intervene earlier and do it differently and change how we view the situation. They’re not just trying to annoy us. They’re not just trying to deliberately, you know, get under our skin or disobey. There’s usually a reason why they’re acting in the way that they’re acting.
Laura: 7:44
Yeah, like I always say, most kids are not just like malicious jerks. That’s not what’s happening. They don’t like to be bothering. They don’t like to feel like people don’t want them around. They don’t like to feel the way that they feel when we treat them, the way that we treat them based on their behaviors. That doesn’t feel good to them either, and so a lot of times they’re just out of control, right Like they don’t have control over their own bodies and their own brains to regulate themselves.
Michaela: 8:15
And that’s a point that I make to parents all the time. I’m like your kid makes good choices when they’re regulated right and they’re like yeah, and I’m like so, let’s get them regulated.
Laura: 8:29
I’ve loved that.
Michaela: 8:30
And I think I learned a lot about from you know, talking with you and the books that you recommended and different things and this is not stuff that was taught in NP school by any means, you know, but these are things that, like I said, I’ve learned along the way because of necessity, because of curiosity of my own.
Laura: 8:50
Yeah, absolutely. We get interested in the stuff we’re interested in because of our own stuff, right, Like I’m hearing a through line like, okay, when you were a kid, your dad had this accident and needed health care and you were drawn to that. That was like a touchstone moment for you and you that carried with you throughout your life. Like most of us do what we do because of something that happened in our past, On a level at least.
Michaela: 9:23
I agree, on a level at least, I agree. I definitely agree that that it’s we’re developing these behaviors, and from the very beginning.
Laura: 9:37
Yeah, like most of us, don’t just go into something like, oh, I’ve never really thought about this or had any exposure to it in my life and I just decided to do this thing and it’s a completely random event. That’s not what happens, right.
Michaela: 9:51
And so I think a lot of the time we act based on feelings, thoughts, you know, an awareness of what their needs are. So they’re not only acting on feelings and reacting to things or thoughts. Feelings, you know, it’s how you know, how do we train them that they, that they don’t have to act on those things, that we, that we can act on things based on like what our needs are and have and like a plan.
Laura: 10:36
Yeah, I the. What I hear you describing is adaptive information processing. It’s what it’s learning from your experiences instead of just reacting to your experiences. Right, like when we are able to process information in an adaptive and healthy way and we’re able to fully and concretely understand what’s going on with us in a regulated state, then that information turns into helpful, usable experience that teaches us and that we draw from along the way.
Laura: 11:09
Now, if we interpret this information in a dysregulated way, in a state of fight or flight from a sense of danger and threat, then it becomes experience that we’re going to be reactive to and we’re going to be avoidant of, and we’re going to be constantly trying to reenact a different resolution to that experience. Like, for example, I always say life is a traumatic reenactment. But like, for example, if you know you go into healthcare because you had a horrible experience and everything you want to do is fix that experience and everything that you want to do is again is around like writing this wrong. That happened right, so that could happen too, that could be a healthy outlet. But also, if you’re so interested in like writing this wrong and you’re only focused on yourself, then you’re not really in it in a healthy way, and you’re not really going to be able to feel satisfaction from your work Right, because you’re always going to be trying to replay this wrong that happened to you and it’s never going to be enough.
Michaela: 12:15
Yeah, then it’s never about like how can I contribute beyond myself, which is what gives you ultimate satisfaction. It’s really how do I fix myself, how do I make this not be what happened?
Laura: 12:27
to me. How do I make this not be what happened to me? Absolutely, that’s a thing that we’re constantly replaying in our brains without knowing. But those things that don’t get stored adaptively, those events and experiences that we had when there was a threat present and when the threat was unresolved and we didn’t have the support that we needed to get through it in real time, then that information is going to continue to loop around and round and round until we get a different outcome, until we get a resolution. And so when we say, how do I help my kids? Come until we get a resolution. And so when we say, how do I help my kids, what we can do is we can offer them the support that they need in order to be regulated through processing that information.
Laura: 13:14
And so when something really bad happens in a child’s life, we want to be present with them. Let them tell and retell that story and continue to say like, hey, and you did a great job here and you, you know you got away from the situation that was scary, and when the fire alarm got, went off like you knew what to do and you were able to get out of the classroom and you were able to go to the place where the teacher went and you did such a great job and you did exactly what you’re supposed to do and even and there was no fire, it just was a scary event, right, like so we’re kind of working through with them and letting them tell their story. Like I, when I heard it, I didn’t know what happened. I thought there was a real fire, and they’re going to say that over and over. When I heard it, I thought there was a real fire when I heard it. And then we want to keep saying like, yeah, yeah, you felt really scared and it turned out and you did exactly what you’re supposed to do and you did a great job and you got away safely, right, so we’re reinforcing the helpful stuff that they did, while we’re also allowing them to process through, instead of just saying, yeah, but it wasn’t a real fire, so you’re fine, right, right, cause that still, that event was still this touchstone event for them.
Laura: 14:22
Like I’ve seen kids who they don’t know, every time a fire goes off, a fire alarm goes off, like it’s not their first instinct to think like, oh, this is a grill, we’re just, we’re just practicing. No, it’s their first instinct to say like, oh there’s a fire here, right. And so the same is true with other school drills, and I’ve heard this from kids a lot. So, like I use that example, because it’s a real example that things that adults think are not a big deal, right, kids interpret those things from a state of threat, right. And so when we experience that stuff and we experience these threats and they don’t get resolved, that’s what we end up not really learning from in a healthy way, and we always are trying to like remedy that somehow and reconcile it in our brains.
Michaela: 15:10
Yeah, and then I like the analogy of the smoke the like alarm going off, because our smoke detector in our brain is going off. In those instances our amygdala is going off and it’s sending us that danger signal. So that’s definitely very fitting.
Laura: 15:27
Yeah, and then they constantly are going to keep going off when it’s not an emergency, right? So that’s the thing that happens is when we have a thing that happens to us that’s like a life threat, then we take in all the surroundings. We do this through our senses. We take in all the surroundings. We do this through our senses, right? We have sight, we have touch, we have smell, we have taste, we have sound. Those senses are designed.
Laura: 15:58
The whole entire reason why we have any of them is to not die, is to keep us alive, is to see danger, to smell danger, to hear it right, all of these things tell us what’s okay and what’s not. Like, think about, like, if something tastes rotten, like you don’t eat it, right, that taste is there for a reason. And so when we have a life-threatening situation, or one that we think is life-threatening, our brain basically takes a snapshot of all the sensory information that’s coming in at that moment and categorizes it as potentially dangerous, right? So if the chairs are red, that means red chairs are potentially dangerous. If the sound is loud, that means loud sounds are potentially dangerous. If the teacher has on a certain perfume, if they walk a certain way, if they have a certain smell, you know, even just that classroom itself.
Laura: 16:54
We’re taking in all this information and just categorizing individual sensory inputs as potentially dangerous, because our brain doesn’t know which of those things caused the danger. Right, it could be any of them. So we’re going to make sure that we’re alerting ourselves in the future. So then, the next time I’m in a situation where any of those things occur, my alarm system is going to go off again. My amygdala is going to be like danger, danger, there’s a threat here, right? And then I’m going to have what we call anxiety for no reason, because it’s not no reason, not.
Michaela: 17:28
Yeah, unless we have the adaptive from our, our, our parents or a supportive person, like you said, and they’re telling the part of your brain that stores memory, which is all kind of talking together, right, and so they’re like that, that part storing memory, and your parents are saying you know, that was okay, yeah, and nothing bad happened, and they’re storing that and helping you store that adaptive information so that when your brain goes to the amygdala, danger, and then it can go to that memory center and say, hey, is there anything bad? Oh, no, no, red chairs are fine, right, like no, no, that’s fine, you know. So your brain is storing those memories so that we can, kind of they can communicate. And so when you’re doing those things to help your kiddo have adaptive information stored and that, and they’ve replayed that image and that situation with you in a safe space, giving them what they need to be able to go back and say no, everything was fine, that was a drill.
Laura: 18:29
Yeah, that’s exactly right. Like they close the feedback loop, right, the amygdala, everything. So we start in our lower brain, we start at the bottom, work our way through the middle, where our memory centers and our sensory processing information goes, and then we work our way through the top and through the front, and the front of our brain is where that cognition comes into play and sorts out the reality of the situation and says oh, red chairs aren’t dangerous, the fire alarm went off because the teachers had a fire drill that day and it’s for us to practice, right. So now I’m cognitively processing, so I’m emotionally processing, then I’m sensory processing, then I’m cognitively processing. And so unless I can complete that feedback loop and go all the way to the front, then I’m going to have some maladaptive, some unhelpfully stored information in there that’s going to be reactive later that I’m going to have an alert because of later. Sure, that makes perfect sense.
Michaela: 19:24
Yeah, brains man, you know, the more that we learn about brains, the more that we learn that everything that they do is like, first and foremost driven to provide safety for us. And so if our kid is dysregulated and they’re in fight or flight or they’re getting stuck there because their smoke detector is going off too easily, you know that’s a sign saying that you know they need co-regulation, that they need that support to help them, not that they’re trying to be a jerk.
Laura: 20:02
They’re not just trying to be a jerk, nobody wants to be a jerk. They’re not just trying to be a jerk. Nobody wants to be a jerk Like.
Laura: 20:06
I think we assign personal malice to behaviors that are upsetting to us. Why do we do that? Because we’re threatened by those behaviors and so our alarm system is going off, and so when I’m thinking my kid is trying to hurt me because he just wants me to suffer, then there’s that’s an indicator, that that’s a fire alarm indicator, right, like because no, he doesn’t and he’s acting in a way that is inconsistent with his goals. But we typically, when we’re not in a regulated state, we behave in a way that’s inconsistent with our goals because our goals are wrong, we’re confused, we’re solving the wrong problem, and so, when it comes to regulation this is one of the reasons why I do what I do is that adults need to learn how to regulate themselves too, so, like for all of the kids, that we can help in real time. There are enough adults that never got that in the first place, right, and they’re having kids Right.
Michaela: 21:10
And they think that they’re okay enough because they have a job, they make good money, they’re doing well enough, they’re functioning Right, and they don’t see, where they can, where their trauma is impacting their life still, where their past is impacting their life still and that the kid is the traumatic reenactment, the traumatic reminder of their experiences in childhood and there’s nothing in our brain that’s telling us that there’s no way of knowing that is what’s happening. But it is Right.
Laura: 21:45
And we don’t know, because it never made it through that cognitive processing part right. We only got emotional and sensory input. We never got the cognitive stuff because it wasn’t able to be worked out in real time. We just had to suffer alone. Sure, and when kids suffer alone, those things become traumatic.
Laura: 22:09
So I heard trauma defined recently as basically anything that causes dissociation, and when we’re suffering alone, we have no choice but to dissociate. And so when we’re in childhood, and so that’s when we check out and we numb ourselves, we numb ourselves to the pain and we separate ourselves from the world that is hurting us and we shut down and we basically just go away into our own inner world and create a world that feels safer for us. And so when we are suffering alone in childhood or we’re suffering at the hands of an adult that we trust, we’re really unable to process this information in a healthy way. It’s impossible in that moment. And so those things cause real, lasting impacts that are going to come back and be tried to be reenacted later in order to get a different outcome. And the first opportunity we have to do that is when we have a kid. Sure.
Michaela: 23:16
But unfortunately then we might feel fear or shame or guilt, which leads us to avoiding those feelings and those thoughts, which is why we want that to just go away. We want our kid to either just be okay, we just want those feelings to go away.
Laura: 23:36
Yeah, we just want it to stop. We want relief. And shame is the suppression of the self in order to achieve connection with another. Shame is designed to suppress yourself. It’s designed to push down your authenticity so that you can connect with the person that you are dependent upon, and so that might be a dangerous person and I can’t authentically be myself around that person. So shame, shame’s job is to push away my authenticity so that I can become somebody that I can, that can be tolerated and that I can tolerate by this person.
Michaela: 24:15
Okay, I’ve not heard it said that way. That’s really good.
Laura: 24:18
Yeah, and so that shame is really powerful self-suppressor. And when we feel it, then we go automatically into that dissociated, go away, follow, you know, just end the whole thing. We just shut down. And when we feel guilt, guilt is the sense of I did something wrong and I’m you know, I’m messing up because, right, we feel the shame, and then we shut down, and then we feel guilty because we shut down or because we handled it wrong, or because we did this thing, and so it’s like this cycle, and then we feel guilty, and even if it’s not about parenting, but it’s about other relationships, it’s about work, maybe it’s about just yourself, and you don’t feel like you’re doing enough for yourself, you don’t feel like you’re taking care of yourself, you don’t feel like you’re taking care of your house, you don’t feel like you’re doing it right. You’re constantly just in this shame, guilt spiral and this loop that just continually feeds itself.
Michaela: 25:17
Yeah, that sounds like a really unhealthy place to be yeah, and we can.
Laura: 25:23
The thing is we can get out of that, we can stop that cycle by getting regulated, by learning how to regulate our nervous systems so that when that stuff comes up, we can know oh, this is something from the past and I can do something different. Now I can change my nervous system regulation, I can choose to regulate myself, and that’s something that we learn how to do over time, because that’s not just, it’s not just oh, as soon as you hear this, you’re going to suddenly, like know how to regulate your nervous system.
Laura: 25:57
That’s not how it works. Unfortunately, system that’s not how it works. Unfortunately, it’s a time consuming, hard process to rewire this stuff, and so you know, one of the main reasons why I do what I do is because of because I know that you can work through it. I know that it can work. I know that you can come out of that shame and guilt spiral and you can turn yourself into somebody who believes in yourself and somebody who cares about yourself and somebody who knows your competencies and knows your capabilities. I know that that’s possible because I’ve experienced that myself.
Michaela: 26:36
Yeah, tell us more about where you, where you like your whole journey.
Laura: 26:42
So I always wanted to be a therapist, like when I was a little kid. I would say that I was going to be a therapist or an attorney. And so I still secretly want to go be an attorney, but but I’ll just do one thing for now. So so I always just wanted to do this, and I don’t necessarily know exactly why, but I remember feeling growing up. I remember feeling like or knowing somehow, that if you had someone there with you and you didn’t have to suffer alone, and that there was somebody who cared enough about you and who said I’m here for you, no matter what, no matter who you are, no matter what you think or feel or say or you know, no matter how you behave, I care about you and I think that you matter. I somehow knew that if, if that were true for everyone, we would have less suffering.
Laura: 27:44
That’s pretty neat for being young. Well, and I think that developed over time, right, and into my late teens and kind of recognizing that, especially as a teenager, that’s more important than ever when you’re trying to become independent, right. And if you are trying to become independent but you don’t believe that you matter and you don’t believe that you have value and you don’t believe that anyone is going to care about what you do, you know your motivation suffers a little bit Sometimes. You know the opposite can be true. You can go out to prove everybody wrong or whatever, but you’re still going to have that sense inside of you that is, that something’s wrong and something’s off and you’re always going to be replaying that. You’re always going to be reenacting it.
Laura: 28:29
And so when I was a young mom, I was going through a lot of really difficult experiences and my trauma was all coming up and saying like hey, I have a really hard time regulating my kids and regulating my emotions and like why is this so hard? I must just be terrible and kind of just like having all these negative thoughts about myself, like I must be. Fundamentally, and over the course of you know 10 years in therapy and you know six years of really good therapy. I was able to turn that reenactment around and really stop trying to solve the past and really able to really be able to recognize myself in the present and like identify, like who I am and what I’m worth and why I’m here and and what I can offer and be a fulfilled person in my life. And I’ve seen the work, work and so I went to be the same kind of therapist that helped me.
Laura: 29:43
That’s really this is my life’s traumatic reenactment is I wanted to be a therapist who could help others, the way that my therapist helped me and everything that I’ve learned and I know all the adaptive that I’ve learned over the years of like that you know it’s not my fault that someone else hurts me, like that’s information that I didn’t know. I remember distinctly the day that I learned that I had the right to say no and that it wasn’t bad to say no and let people down Right. I remember distinctly like learning these pieces of adaptive information and how they changed me, and so that’s why I love EMDR and that’s why you know adaptive information processing is the theory behind EMDR therapy, which is a trauma therapy that I practice, and you know, knowing all of this stuff and how effective it can be is really what drives me effective it can be is really what drives me.
Michaela: 30:46
Yeah, that’s really deep and thanks for sharing such. You know, your personal journey and everything. So what do you think about EMDR? So there’s a lot of adaptive, I know you know. Then you’re there’s also, you know, a a lot of um cognitive pieces to EMDR. Was there one thing about EMDR that was like so powerful for you?
Laura: 31:10
I think for me the most powerful piece was um, was actually like ego state or like parts work. Was actually like ego state or like parts work. So stuff inside, so we all have. So parts is dissociation work, right. So I was a dissociative person in the past. That was how I coped with stuff. I had dissociative processes constantly, and so dissociation is that disconnection from oneself. So disconnection from yourself or from the world is as a coping mechanism to either numb or avoid or escape pain and painful experiences. And so incorporating that work and really recognizing and treating the dissociative parts of me that were struggling and stuck was the most helpful thing.
Laura: 32:04
So the way this works is people have maybe heard of similarly called like inner child work or you know, or or you know working I don’t like this term, but like reparenting yourself or whatever. So those are things that kind of may be more commonplace but are a little bit different than what I’m talking about here, which is identifying the parts of oneself that feel stuck in time and space. Feel stuck in time and space. So we all have aspects of our personality that didn’t fully develop past a traumatic experience, and some of us experience those as just like mood states or what we call ego states, and others experience those as dissociated parts of a self, and others experience those as dissociated parts of a self, and so on a spectrum we all might say oh well, part of me feels like I really love to go out with my friends, but another part of me just wants to stay home in bed and watch TV. Right, yeah, we have these inner conflict parts that don’t agree and that can happen all the time. So those are more fluid, kind of ego-steady parts of the self, but dissociated parts are more separated, they’re more compartmentalized and they don’t have access to all the same information that a present self would have. So a part that is stuck in childhood, a part of oneself that is dissociated based on a traumatic experience, might experience themselves in the world as a child or a teenager experience might experience themselves in the world as a child or a teenager. And so I have kind of a funny example of this.
Laura: 33:54
Like one time this was maybe like 15, 15 years ago and I had my little kid yeah, my kids were really little and I was at like the grocery store or something and I saw someone I knew from high school and I immediately like turned into a teenager. I just like felt like a little kid. I felt like I was school and I immediately like turned into a teenager. I just like felt like a little kid. I felt like I was just, and I became terrified because there’s this person that I knew from um, from a time that was difficult for me, and I I literally hid. I went and like hid behind something until they passed and then I like escaped, I like ran away from the store because I was so afraid. Yeah, I was a fully grown, adult woman with like children.
Laura: 34:36
What was going on, that was, I was being hijacked by a part of myself that felt really young and stuck and didn’t know how to cope with the situation and the threat that was present in that moment. Now, if I were talking to someone about this today, I would recommend that we kind of explore the perspective of the part that was scared, right and so to allow that part to kind of speak and share what was happening for that part of me at that time and hopefully we could get some insight and whatever else. And then the other thing that I would do is I would learn how to recognize that alarm system going off, because when we get hijacked by a part of ourselves that feels really young. That’s an indicator that there’s an alarm system going off right, that there’s a threat being sensed in that moment, and so I would say, okay, let’s learn how to recognize that alarm and find a way to regulate our nervous system in that moment.
Laura: 35:32
Use some grounding skills. Use some self-regulation tools that you may have learned in therapy, whether those are cognitive tools like doing math problems or counting backwards from 10 or remembering your address or something like that Something to get that cognitive part of your brain back online. Or sometimes it’s sensory Maybe I carry essential oils and I smell the smell of mint or lavender or something like that. So those are really good grounding skills. But grounding skills are a way to help your nervous system settle, yeah.
Michaela: 36:04
So what I’m hearing you say is that, through therapy, what could happen if that incidence is replayed out over again? You might get the alarm system to go off, your smoke detectors going off, but instead you can stop, ground yourself, get back into the present moment so that you can then remain in control. You can then remain in control and that part of you that wanted to go hide maybe doesn’t have to go hide because you can be back in the present moment and be able to calm your nervous system.
Laura: 36:44
Yes, and that’s a really simple example, not a complex one, right? So like this is just, this is like the simplest of examples to demonstrate, like what I’m talking about here, but this can be a far more complex process for people and much more difficult than you know. The situation that I described just to kind of disclaimer.
Michaela: 37:04
Yeah, that’s good to know, but I think that, like, there’s a lot of people that are out there that would probably identify with the experience that you described and, um, in some way we’ve all you know, a lot of us have probably experienced some situation where we whether we write, we probably don’t recognize it without therapy, but we we’ve had situations where we’ve reacted in a way that was very unlike ourselves, our normal, typical selves, and being able to use those grounding skills and knowing that we can have control is empowering.
Laura: 37:46
Absolutely it is, and that’s one of the most helpful things that I’ve learned through therapy is grounding skills and learning what works for me, right? Not everything works for everyone.
Michaela: 37:59
Right.
Laura: 38:00
I’m not a well. I used to be much more adverse to like breathing exercises because I felt like they would just make me feel anxious. But I learned about belly breathing Instead of breathing for my chest, I breathe for my belly and that helps, right. So it’s like not everything works for everyone. We have to practice and recognize like, oh well, that wasn’t helpful, that didn’t work. And then we can use what we’re learning and adapt to it more and say, okay, well, you know, maybe chest breathing, maybe try it a different way, right. So we adapt it to ourselves and we practice. And there’s a thousand million grounding skills out there, right?
Michaela: 38:48
Yes, I find myself in session with people and being like, well, let’s talk about breathing, and I’m like, where do I start? Which breathing skill should I start with? Oh, I have like I just want to throw all of this information at you and I’m like, okay, slow down, Just give them one or two things today. We’ll revisit it and see how it goes. But like there’s just so many things that people can use, that it’s it’s. It can be overwhelming.
Laura: 39:12
And one of my favorites is a calm place, and you know it’s part of the protocol to create a calm place. We’re supposed to like name it, and I find that people get caught up on, like what the name is going to be, Like it has to be something creative, and I’m like, no, it doesn’t, I just call mine the calm place. Like I’m not a creative person, you can just name it that, right? Yeah, and so you’re creating a space of visualization that gives you a sense of relief in a moment where you need it. That’s it. You’re not fixing whatever problem is facing you. It’s not about that. It’s not a long-term solution. This is a short-term solution for a short-term problem, which is that you’re dysregulated in this moment and that you need to regulate yourself in order to feel safe again.
Michaela: 39:59
Yeah, Because we make good decisions when we’re regulated.
Laura: 40:03
I love that. I’m going to start using that all the time, Just like I stole Caitlin’s. We don’t do things that don’t make sense. We make good decisions when we’re regulated. I love that that’s so true.
Michaela: 40:15
So I’m thinking like back of like you know, kind of I can’t remember exactly what it was that you said, but it you know, in our past, like we go through all these things and we get kind of stuck and we can’t fully develop in certain situations, and do you think that that’s why some people have so many cognitive, like cognitive distortions or like negative thinking, right, Like, um, you think about, like all the like, all the reasons why people blame their situation. They blame well, all the reasons why people blame their situation. They blame, well, I couldn’t make this happen because, you know, I didn’t have enough money and I didn’t have enough time and I didn’t have enough, um, you know what, X, Y, Z, right, I didn’t have the support. And so they they kind of like we, we, we developed this, you know, thought process where, like it’s never, it’s never enough, we can never have enough to externally to do what we need to do, Right, but I think, like when you kind of described your transition through therapy, the way that you view the world seemed to have changed.
Michaela: 41:29
Right, it did. You developed passion and determination and self-belief in yourself. That stuff was developed through you changing and developing these adaptive thought processes. Is that fair? Is that something?
Laura: 41:48
Yeah, I think that’s really well said. Actually, I think that you’re exactly right that when we are stuck in trauma time, when we’re stuck in these thought processes and these loops much, we are causing this external stuff to happen, right. So we’re sort of we’re along for the ride, if you will, in childhood, whereas when we become adults and fully develop and grow up, then we’re driving. But when you’re experiencing like chronic toxic stress or trauma or abuse or you know whatever it is that you’re experiencing in childhood, that’s that’s causing you to have to stop that development and just not die Right, that becomes the priority. It’s not about development, it’s just about survival ever caused.
Laura: 42:55
That is basically the thing that you’re going to replay over and over and over until you resolve the stuff in therapy and then your belief about the thing will change, right. So the thing that is happening to you your belief about it is usually negative and self-focused about. It is usually negative and self-focused, like it’s my fault or I couldn’t do anything, I’m helpless, I’m useless, I’m not good enough, et cetera, et cetera. And then through the process of therapy, those beliefs change and it’s not my fault and bad things happen and I can be okay. Still, I’m capable, I’m capable, I’m able to get through this and those. Those are adaptive beliefs because they’re helpful, right, they help us move forward and they help us feel fulfilled. You know, and you had mentioned previously about Maslow’s hierarchy of needs yeah, and that’s kind of what this reminds me of is that self-actualization is the fulfillment of the belief in oneself versus the earlier needs to just survive, like those basic have food, have a place to sleep, shelter yeah, what is it food?
Laura: 44:13
it’s like shelter, warmth food. What are they?
Michaela: 44:18
um, yeah, um, I’m gonna look it up because I don’t remember what the middle one is. Because there’s, then there’s something, and then I think it’s love, and then there’s something in between, yeah, okay, yes, so the the physiological needs, like breathing, food, shelter, clothing, sleep, then there, then, above that, if that’s met, then you can go to like working on safety and security, so health, employment, family, you know social ability. Then there’s love and belonging, friendship, family, intimacy, self, a sense of connection, and then self-esteem comes after that, confidence, achievement, respect of others, the need to be unique individual, and then there’s self-actualization. And then there’s self-actualization and that’s where you know acceptance, your purpose, meaning internal inner potential, creativity lie?
Laura: 45:21
Yeah, so the journey of therapy is the journey of taking you through meeting each of those needs and kind of climbing this ladder and getting to a place where you’re constantly, I think, self-actualization. We should call this a verb. It’s not a place, it’s a path. It’s a verb, not a noun, and so that’s something that we constantly strive for. But we have to maintain those bottom tier needs, because those are the foundation. Without those, you know, we’re really just surviving, we’re not thriving. Yeah.
Michaela: 45:58
Now, I like this and this has, you know, stood the test of time, if you will. But I also somewhat believe that in order for you to figure out some of the safety and security and the love and belonging things, you kind of need to have your own sense of self-esteem and belief in yourself. And so I think that you know, though this does make a lot of sense, I also feel like sometimes, you know, there can be some, you know, intermixing of some of those.
Laura: 46:32
I don’t know. Maybe it’s linear, it’s not linear, maybe it’s a circular a little bit right, it’s a wheel of needs, and maybe we should make that into a thing.
Michaela: 46:45
You guys heard it here now Heard it here, first Wheel of need.
Laura: 46:51
But I think that’s right and I think that they’re all going to come and go as time goes on, right, like I can’t just satisfy my need for food and shelter, like one time I need to do that all day, every day, right. And so what we need to do is recognize that we are dynamic and constantly moving and constantly changing, and that a solution isn’t permanent. Things change, people change, states change throughout the day. I might have, you know, an emotional state that I need to address in that moment, and then that doesn’t mean that’s my whole day, it’s just I’m going through an emotional experience in this moment and I need to, you know, allow that to go through me and pass, and then I can move on to the next thing.
Laura: 47:40
But we get stuck sometimes in those and we fear that those emotional states will never change and we’ll just be stuck in them forever. And that’s a childhood strategy or that’s a childhood belief system, I should say in them forever. And that’s a childhood strategy or that’s a childhood belief system, I should say, because as kids we get stuck in those moments of dysregulation. We don’t really have the tools to regulate ourselves. We need that co-regulation in order to do that, and that kind of brings us back to supporting that kid in real time and as an adult.
Michaela: 48:09
The therapist is sort of that co-regulator that’s very well said, um, so I love how you brought it back full circle, down back to back to my original question, which, again, this is me and my work, my work and my know what. You know we’re talking about us like this is what it comes back to we. We were, um, I was shopping with my sister the other day and I was like, oh, look at that, the kids would love that. And oh, the kids would love that. And she’s like everything’s the kids and I’m like, yeah, kind of it is what it feels like sometimes nowadays, but it kind of brings it back to that. You know, trying to always heal my kids and maybe that’s part of my own trying to fix my stuff thing right, because if I can do it right for my kids, then my stuff won’t have happened right and that’s my stuff I’ll have to work out in therapy.
Laura: 49:15
Yeah, that’s a lot of have to work out in therapy. Yeah, that’s. Yeah, that’s a lot of what I worked out in therapy. You know, we all have our stuff. None of us get out of this unscathed. We’re humans with nervous systems and we get dysregulated throughout the day and that’s okay. And I think that’s important to run like recognize Adaptively. We don’t always stay in one state of mind and when we realize that we can change our state and come back to a state of regulation, that’s power. Yeah.
Michaela: 49:49
Well, I think, you know, um, I was listening to the this podcast, um, I think it was the rachel hollis podcast and she was talking about how, um, she was driving along and someone cut her off and like all day long she was dysregulated. She kind of and I’m probably butchering this, but, um, you know, she felt dysregulated. She didn’t really know that, what kind of dysregulated her, until she traced it back to okay, there was a someone cut me off in traffic and that made me feel X, y, z, right, and then so like we can be fine one minute and then something can set us off and it can kind of disrupt our day and we may not even recognize that that that thing happened and then that’s what it was. But we can try to get present, ground ourselves at that moment and we do recognize it. Maybe we can trace it back and figure out what it was, that when we started to feel not great. So we can kind of recognize our triggers going forward. But we may not always know, it might just kind of happen.
Michaela: 50:56
And I let one of the other things that I like about, um, you know, heart math and doing some of the biofeedback from heart math is, um, you know, just trying to do these things and regulate ourselves constantly, you know, having a way of being able to regulate our nervous system and kind of um, our heart rhythm right and um, that regulation of our nervous system through our heart is that body up feedback to our brain. Even if our brain smoke alarm, is going off, saying danger, then we calm our body down and our body’s nervous system is saying no, I’m okay. And that brain tells the brain no, every everything’s actually good. And you know, there’s this belief that you know the electrical state of our heart and our brain is actually kind of feeding into the regulation of those around us and so we can kind of influence some people in that if we’re regulated we can help others be regulated as well.
Laura: 52:06
Yeah, for sure. We are all connected and we need connection. That’s a major need in our hierarchy, in our wheel, in our wheel right, absolutely, and you know, I think that’s a great place to leave it. I really appreciate you sharing your story and being a little vulnerable today on why are we like this and this? Was a really great conversation.
Michaela: 52:35
Yeah, this was, I really enjoyed it.
Laura: 52:37
Yes, thank you, and thank you for listening to. Why Am I Like this? If you liked our show, please leave us a rating and review on your favorite podcast platform. Follow the show and share it with your friends. This episode was written and produced by me, Laura Wood and Michaela Bieber. Our theme song is Making Ends Meet by Thick as Thieves. A special thanks to Ben Avery, counseling and Coaching and Active Healing Psychiatric Services for sponsoring this show.
