In the intricate dance between our minds and bodies, few connections are as compelling as the one between gut health and mental processes, such as overthinking. This symbiotic relationship was the focal point of a recent episode of the podcast “Why Am I Like This?”, where trauma therapist Laura Wood and psychiatric nurse practitioner Mishayla Beaver delved deep into the topic, unraveling the layers that connect our digestive tracts to our thought patterns.
The conversation began with an explanation of overthinking—those repetitive, often negative, thought loops that trap us in a cycle of worry and anticipation. The experts made it clear that overthinking isn’t merely a byproduct of an anxious mind; it’s also influenced by our gut health. They elucidated the vital role of gut bacteria, pointing out that an imbalance can lead to inflammation, which has been linked to a range of mental health concerns, including depression and anxiety.
Diet, naturally, plays a crucial part in this. The hosts highlighted the positive impacts of a balanced diet rich in plant-based foods and probiotics, such as those found in kombucha. These foods foster a healthy gut microbiome, which can alleviate inflammation and improve overall mental well-being, potentially reducing the propensity to overthink. This discussion was a revelation, showcasing how the mundane act of eating could have far-reaching consequences on our cognitive and emotional health.
Shifting gears to neurofeedback, the episode offered a primer on this cutting-edge technique that helps balance logic and emotion within the brain. Neurofeedback, as described, is not about suppressing emotions or enhancing logic—it’s about achieving harmony between the two hemispheres of the brain. This balance is crucial for regulating emotional responses and honing reasoning skills. For individuals dealing with trauma-induced hypervigilance and rumination, neurofeedback presents a method to train different brain areas, fostering a more resilient and adaptive mind.
Parenting strategies were also a significant point of discussion. The podcast offered a nuanced perspective on the delicate act of nurturing a child’s independence while providing necessary support. The experts proposed offering “kid-sized” choices, empowering children to make decisions without being overwhelmed by the gravity of the outcomes. This approach encourages children to develop their autonomy within a supportive framework, helping them build confidence and decision-making skills.
The episode didn’t shy away from the societal implications of boredom, especially among teenagers, discussing how the pursuit of constant dopamine spikes can lead to increased mental health issues. It outlined strategies to manage overthinking, emphasizing the power of mindfulness and grounding exercises. By learning to be present and embracing the concept of leaving tasks unfinished, individuals can find peace and mitigate the effects of an overactive mind.
Lastly, the podcast touched on the importance of social connections in alleviating stress and the value of reaching out for distraction rather than advice. The episode concluded with an invitation to participate in an upcoming food challenge, stirring excitement and offering a practical way to engage with the content discussed.
In sum, the episode was a treasure trove of insights for anyone looking to understand the myriad factors that influence overthinking. From gut health to neurofeedback, parenting to personal mindfulness, it painted a comprehensive picture of how interconnected our well-being is with our lifestyle choices and thought patterns. As we navigate the complexities of the mind-gut connection, this podcast stands as a guide, helping us to make informed choices for a healthier, more balanced life.
Read the full transcript
Laura: 0:00
Hello and welcome to. Why Am I Like this? The podcast for those who didn’t get enough hugs as a child? I’m Laura Wood and I’m a trauma therapist.
Michaela: 0:10
Hi and I’m Mishayla Beaver. I’m a psychiatric nurse practitioner.
Laura: 0:13
So, Mishayla, why are we doing this podcast?
Michaela: 0:18
I’m so glad you asked. We want to help you understand yourself a bit better how the things you learned about yourself and the world in childhood are still affecting you today. We want to figure out why are we like this those random things about ourselves that we might wonder about, like why am I so jumpy? Why am I so anxious? Why do I take everything personally? Why are my thoughts so negative? Why do I feel like I have to fix everything all the time?
Laura: 0:46
Yes, we are talking about overthinking today and we’re going to try to answer a couple of questions like what even is overthinking, like what’s really going on and how can we shift our thoughts and get them to calm down. So what are we going to do? Let’s get into it.
Michaela: 1:08
So overthinking? Yeah, I think about rumination. When I think of overthinking, I think repetitive, like negative thoughts are persistently playing over the things over and over again and you’re just not able to stop it.
Laura: 1:28
Yeah, okay, so that makes sense. So just kind of thought loops, we kind of, when we end up down like a rabbit hole of like the same thing over and over and over. What about like thinking about every which possible scenario that could happen? Right, like I have to plan for every single thing, like I need to make sure I have a backup plan and a backup plan for my backup plan.
Michaela: 1:53
Right, that fixation on the worst case scenario or catastrophic thinking kind of thing, mm-hmm.
Laura: 2:01
Yeah, do you think that there are kids or people who, just like, are born that way? I?
Michaela: 2:08
think that that’s possible just because of genetic makeup. I think that it’s possible based on, like, the way that, just our way, the way that brains work, but I think that a lot of the is going to be environmental triggers probably.
Laura: 2:28
Say more about that.
Michaela: 2:29
So I think of what we see with our parents and how they interact with us. I think of you know, if you’re when you’re born and you’re born via C-section, that changes that gut microbiota. As you enter into the world you get exposed to the vaginal canal and that leads to that healthy bacterial exposure. Babies that are born C-section don’t get that. They just get, you know, the skin to skin contact stuff and that can change and alter your gut microbiota. As well as the foods that you eat and that can change and alter your gut microbiota as well as the foods that you eat in that first few years of life, really make an impact on your gut health, right, and so when I think of gut health, I think of having a good mixture of a lot of the healthy bacteria will help.
Michaela: 3:18
But if you have too much of the overgrowth of bad bacteria, it can lead to a thinning of the mucosal layer of your GI tract or your intestines and that can let things cross that we don’t want to cross and those things can also cross into the blood brain barrier, affecting us.
Michaela: 3:35
I mean, think about it Like when you get, when you get a little nervous about something, what do you get? You get butterflies in your stomach, right If you get really anxious about something you feel like you’re going to throw up. Have butterflies in your stomach, right If you get really anxious about something you feel like you’re going to throw up, right. Our brain and our GI tract, or our gut, also called the gut-brain access, is all connected and so the vagus nerve, one of the cranial nerves, touches all of the things down all the way to your GI tract, and your GI tract has its own enteric nervous system. That enteric nervous system sends signals back to the brain and actually most of the signaling from that connection is signals from the GI tract up to the brain, and most of your serotonin lives within your GI tract. So it’s all kind of connected and affecting each other.
Laura: 4:23
Okay, You’re blowing my mind right now. So you’re telling me that if I eat junk food like only granola bars and trail mix and just I love that diet You’re telling me that I could be affecting my brain, like my cognitive functioning, because I don’t have the right balance of nutrients, and like good bacteria possibly in my gut.
Michaela: 4:55
Yeah, so the things that help create good variety in your, your GI tract, healthy gut bacteria, are going to be from not processed foods. Processed foods are going to increase your bad bacteria. They love sugar, the bad bacteria, the unhealthy stuff. They love sugar and they tend to overgrow in situations when they are exposed to a lot of those not healthy options amongst a whole host of other reasons to not eat those things in excess, right?
Laura: 5:32
Not live on a diet of Diet Coke and Chex Mix and Granola. So you’re saying that that’s probably not balanced? Probably not. Yikes, okay, I’m gonna have to rethink a lot of things in my life. So, okay, this is fascinating. So now, how does that affect my thinking?
Michaela: 5:53
Well, I think that when they’re imbalanced, it can increase the risk for those unhealthy things to cross the blood brain barrier, crossing into the gut or crossing from the gut into the body, which increases inflammation. So that’s one. Inflammation has been very tied to depression. There is a lot of evidence that shows that inflammation in the body can lead to depression, anxiety, and that can lead to this. What we’re talking about, which is overthinking anxiety over, and that can lead to this, what we’re talking about, which is overthinking a lot of negative thoughts. Then there’s not to mention the fact that, you know, we might see an increase in being overweight, and that can lead to negative thoughts about ourselves.
Michaela: 6:37
I think one of the things that I think of when I think of overthinking is probably that our self-esteem isn’t that great, we don’t really like ourselves, we have a lot of self-doubt, and so that can lead to a lot of overthinking as well. So, by getting a healthier gut microbiome, that also affects our hormones, and our hormones like thyroid hormone, testosterone and our other endocrine um you know, estrogen and progesterone and all of those things. All of those things are also tied to our mood and our um you know negative thinking. We see a lot of shifts in women, specifically during their cycle, because those hormones change Um. So if we have an imbalance, we’re going to see even more of that potentially. So it’s kind of tied together, so that’s kind of a big deal.
Laura: 7:31
I think, about kids who are, I know. You know we’ve talked a lot about food dyes and we’ve seen more and more information about how processed foods affects like our actual life in different ways besides just how just our nutrition. But this is really interesting, you know, as you think about anxiety and depression, that does drive a lot of thought loops, like a lot of you know worst case scenario thinking or what do we call it? We call it catastrophizing, and I think sometimes we can be born with a predisposition for worry or a predisposition for like pessimism versus optimism, like pragmatism.
Laura: 8:20
You know some of those traits that are just sort of you know logic we want to use. We want to just sort of you know logic we want to use, we want to just kind of look at the facts and we want to analyze and research. And those are things that you can sort of have as traits that you’re born with and then they can also be curated. But if we have these traits and then we have this imbalance in our gut and our brain and that connection isn’t healthy, then we’re not able to process our information in a healthy way, we’re not able to maximize and optimize on these traits and then they maybe can lead us down a path of negative overthinking and low self-esteem and perfectionism and all these other things.
Michaela: 9:07
Yeah, absolutely I think so too, and one of the things that I wanted to pick your brain on in link two is like, why do you think that, like some of us are very heavily like a left brain person or like a right brain person, like why do what makes us more logic or over or overly emotional?
Laura: 9:27
I think that is.
Laura: 9:30
I think that has a lot to do with genetic predisposition and just sort of we’re born with the capacity to leverage both sides of our brain but we sort of have one that we go towards right Like, um, kind of like being right or left handed, um, and everybody look like everybody uses both sides of their brain, right Like.
Laura: 9:50
The reason sometimes people get maybe stuck on one side versus the other is actually somewhat of a lack of integration.
Laura: 9:59
So a fully integrated, like really well-developed brain is going to absolutely capitalize and optimize on both sides and be able to to leverage, um, you know, your artistic side and your emotional intelligence and your sensory input, and then it’s also going to be able to do a lot of categorization and logic and reasoning and reading and math skills are going to be there. We sort of need both sides in order for them to balance out and in order for us to process information in a healthy way, in order for us to understand the world fully, right, like when I think about, when I think about people sort of using one side or the other and we talk about oh, is it logic versus emotional? It’s really not that it’s more sequential versus abstract. Yeah, it’s like concrete and abstract and I think if we think about it that way, then it’s a little bit more forgiving for us to be like right brained people or left brained people, because the opposite of emotion is not logic.
Laura: 11:13
Those aren’t opposites, like those aren’t right, it’s, it’s. Are we focusing on? You know it’s. It’s reminds me, it’s like pagination. It’s like okay, are we sorting everything by like numbers and letters or are we sorting them by shapes and colors? Sure, right, yeah, a left brain person in this context might want to number everything and have like a bulleted list of like number one, number two, number three, maybe they’re alphabetized. But a right brain person is going to organize their record collection based on colors and like what the album art looks like and what the, you know what, the, maybe the vibe of the music, the actual like themes instead. So you kind of have like, how do you see the world, how do you make sense of the world, how do you organize the world? And we’re going to have a preference for one or the other, but it’s, it’s.
Michaela: 12:13
It’s not as much logic and emotion, it has more to do with sort of how do we make things make sense? Sure, do you think? I mean, I guess you know do you use neurofeedback to like, integrate both sides to be working more in a balanced way?
Laura: 12:28
Oh yeah, absolutely. And so when we are doing neurofeedback, that’s specifically what we’re doing, is we’re saying, okay, I’m going to, I’m either going to, you know, really target a right brain area. If so, right brain targeting does actually help with emotional regulation. It helps us sort of find a lower arousal, like. It helps us find calm. It helps us find more stability and a sense of like, a sense of our body, like a sense of just connection within ourself.
Laura: 13:03
And our left brain is really helpful to target things that are more reasoning, more linguistic, more so, like if somebody has dyslexia or dyscalculia or something like that, you know, then we’re looking at our left brain. If somebody, you know, is really struggling with an overactivation of their amygdala and overactivation of their emotional center, then we’re targeting our right brain. And so what I like to do is target both at the same time, and so we’re getting, we’re getting both of the sides of the brain working together so that they can get in what’s called a phase, so they can sort of slow down and speed up and balance each other out a little bit more, cause if one is running too fast and the other one’s running too slow, or they’re both running super fast or they’re both running super slow, like then it’s, it’s not necessarily, the communication isn’t isn’t as effective.
Michaela: 14:07
That’s so interesting. I love that when you talk about the amygdala, that makes me think of like fear and so like you could target the amygdala as one of the like sources of like overthinking. When we’re thinking like, we think of people ruminating on, like being afraid of the worst outcome and scenario. You could then use like the neurofeedback to kind of target that.
Laura: 14:32
Yeah for sure. So an overactive fear circuitry is really what we get in response to trauma. And so when we’re doing neurofeedback with developmental trauma, most of the time we’re focusing on our right side, the right side of our brain. But actually you know what I’m going to change, that I’m going to say like 50-50,. I’m doing right side training versus both side training. And so both side training, where you’re sort of doing equal work on each side, that is really like that improves stability in a lot of ways. So unless somebody has a very specific need to train on one side or the other, I’m going to be training both sides.
Laura: 15:17
And with developmental trauma, we tend to see a higher fear activation. We see a lot of hyper vigilance and we see a lot of that rumination and overthinking and it’s that like I need to do this in order to stay safe, I need to do this in order to stay alive, like I have to think about all of these different outcomes, I have to have a backup plan and I have to keep going and I have to solve for the worst case scenario. I have to anticipate everybody’s movements, I have to think about how many exits there are in this room, right, and so there’s some overthinking. That’s not related to any kind of pathology, but it’s just the way that your brain works. Like earlier, when I was trying to decide we’re about to record and I’m deciding what to do with my dogs, right, well, can you hear my dogs? Maybe I should go to my office, maybe I should go into a different room. Like you know, it’s not very professional to have my dogs be barking and then you were like, if we hear them, then that’s real life.
Laura: 16:16
And then that kind of got me out of that like solve this problem. And I was like, oh yeah, I guess it really doesn’t matter. I’m literally overthinking it. Like that’s, we’re about to talk about overthinking, I’m literally overthinking it. Like that’s, we’re about to talk about overthinking. I’m literally overthinking it. And so there’s that normal level of like, oh, I want everything to be done. Well, right, I want to do my best, I want to be my best, so I’m going to try to plan ahead. That’s normal. Now, if I can’t stop, and it took me another 35 minutes worth of like figuring out what I was going to do and that interrupted our time together and then I wasn’t able to move on with my life and I wasn’t able to shift back into a present state of mind, like that’s when it’s interfering, that’s when it’s kind of becoming more of a thing that I want to address and possibly try to change that pattern. Right, so it’s not a problem until it’s a problem.
Michaela: 17:13
Right. The other thing that makes me think of is like the overthinking of, like needing reassurance.
Laura: 17:21
Right.
Michaela: 17:22
I need to solve this problem by like asking a hundred people how do I solve this problem? Because they’re just trying to like it’s ruminating in their head so much that they can’t get it out, but they keep going from person to person to person trying to make that, like that anxious, that thing go away, and they just can’t make it stop. And so they have to keep getting like reassurance or like talking about it to try to like help them fix it.
Laura: 17:49
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I noticed that a lot in people who are experiencing perfectionism and people who are experiencing like a people-pleasing tendency, like we talked about last time. You know, from a childhood, like from a developmental perspective, when we are kids and we’re not allowed to have our own thoughts and we’re not allowed to make our own decisions, and when we do make our own decisions, those decisions get shut down and we are constantly being sort of belittled and demeaned and we are not able to share our true self. You know, then that can make us really insecure and then the opposite is true. When we develop the capacity to be our true self, when we’re encouraged and we’re supported to explore our own experiences, then we have a tendency to go the other way and be less of an overthinker. We’re going to be less perfectionism. We’re going to be focused more on being our best self instead of being our best self for others.
Michaela: 19:03
Yeah, I love that. I was just talking to my mom about this exact thing earlier today, about how we, as parents, have such a need to control the situation. We have our agendas, we have the things that we think we’re supposed to do to be a good parent and we end up, you know, putting a lot of demands on our kids without realizing what that means. So it’s like we’re talking about how, like, how does that look if we’re going to do it in a healthy way, like giving choices, like offering, like saying hey, you’re allowed to say no, like tell me about that. What does that mean? Like, why are you against this thing? What else, what other things do you think of when you’re trying to like, think of a healthy way to, to be able to allow our kids that autonomy, to not get away with stuff? We’re not saying like, hey, have free reign, but also like, how do we let them explore that need to be able to know, to have opinions, to get choice, to be able to say no, to have opinions to get choice.
Laura: 20:08
Yeah, I mean, I think we need to think about, okay, what’s a kid-sized choice and what’s a grown-up-sized choice? And so one mistake that we can make is we offer too much autonomy in big choices and not enough support, but then for little things, we offer complete. We require, like complete control, and they have to. It’s kind of funny where, you know, we’ll ask our kids like, well, where do you want to go to school? Or what do you? You know, do you think we should move into a new house? Like do you like that idea? Like what would you think? So, like we ask these big questions, but then, when it comes to, like you know, eating, they have to, you know, eat with their hold, their fork properly and eat, you know, and it’s so controlled and regimented, and like they can’t leave the table until everybody’s done or they have this. But it’s like, okay, we’re really swinging too far on either side there, right, like it’s one. We need to be the adults and they need to be the kids. And I think that kid adult boundary is probably the most important aspect of self-development, because what that does is it allows the kid to safely explore and know that there is a competent adult that’s going to support them in helping them kind of recover from whatever they learn in their exploration, whether or not they learn something a difficult lesson, or if they get excited and learn a really positive lesson, then they get to share that with the adult, right? So, being a competent adult leader and not enmeshed in the kids emotional experience, like if we’re like, well, what do you think? Do you think that we should move? Like I think you know, I really want to have a new house with a bigger bedroom for you, and then the kids like well, I don’t, what do you mean? Do I think I don’t? I don’t know, I don’t think that that’s a decision that I can make. Or I don’t want to move Like I don’t know what to do.
Laura: 22:12
Here we’re, we’re sort of creating this requirement for them to know more than they can know, and so that’s going to lead to them kind of overthinking later, Whereas if we’re just giving them the little things and we’re taking the big things, right, like a little thing could be which of these three haircut choices do you want today? Right, we’re going to the barbershop, we’re going to get your haircut. Here’s three different like styles that you can choose from. Choose one of those three. That’s a kid size choice Right from. Choose one of those three. That’s a kid size choice Right.
Michaela: 22:52
Um, instead of you know a too big of a choice for the kids. So what about going back to the dinner, the dinner thing? I know that this is a huge struggle for so many people. So, like, um, totally get it. Like every family has their own set of rules, right. So like they’re going to try to like figure out what that looks like.
Michaela: 23:10
So like, for me in my house I might make a whole like taco thing, right, and I’m like, and it’s all like deconstructed so that the kid can choose what they want on their thing. And if they want, if they don’t want meat or, and they just want cheese, or they want it, they want vegetables, but they, they don’t, they don’t want all of them. Like they get to choose what they want. Right, that’s a, that’s a good kid size choice. But like, then they don’t they, they, they get that choice Right. But then they also have to decide like, okay, I can’t sit at what, what am I going to do while I’m sitting here while everybody’s finishing eating, right? So like, could you say like, hey, what kind of activity do you want to sit and do while you, while everybody finishes? Or something like that?
Laura: 23:56
Yeah, I mean, I think that’s a good option, right, we want to keep the kids engaged. So, like thinking about this from a developmental level, I think about be reasonable, just be a reasonable person and think is it reasonable for a five or six year old to have to sit in silence while adults are talking and they have nothing to do? Probably not, like that’s not reasonable, that’s not developmentally appropriate, right? So that’s what I’ve heard called an expectation gap, the gap between their capacity and the expectation. And so to have a coloring page that they’re allowed to take out, that they can do while they wait for everyone to finish, or like those fun placemats that have little like crosswords or whatever, like that’s perfect. So having something there to help make sure that they’re recognized that this is their place and they’re welcome here, to help make sure that they’re recognized that this is their place and they’re welcome here.
Laura: 24:56
Anytime a kid feels left out or lonely or bored, they’re going to get confused and be really like, get activated and they’re going to need to, like, get attention. So if they’re sitting at the table and they have nothing to do and no one’s addressing them, no one’s like interacting with them. They’re sort of they have no purpose there. Now they’re going to feel left out and then they’re going to need to what we call activate the caregiving system. Tell me more. And they’re going to do that by trying to get involved. They’re going to engage their caretakers in some way. It might be an unhealthy way. It might start out as a healthy way. It might start out by saying like, hey, you know, tell me about this or what’s this, or what’s that or what’s that. I’m going to ask you a billion questions. And then now the caregiver has an opportunity to get frustrated with that or not to and to entertain them. But it’s our being reasonable to know, like, okay, this kid just wants attention, so why don’t I just ask this kid to tell me about, you know what their favorite part of dinner was, or what they are going to do after dinner? Or you know, maybe I let them excuse themselves early and they can go in another room and, you know, play or have 10 minutes of free time or something, while I get to eat as an adult in peace. Like that might be a nice thing actually, yeah, and then they return after 10 minutes to maybe help with the dishes or whatever that is, but the ultimately, we have to be reasonable. We have to recognize that our kids need our attention and we are.
Laura: 26:29
This is a hard thing for parents to know. We are the most important people in their lives, we are, so everything that we do. This might be hard to believe, but they’re interested, right, they are. They want to know everything that we’re thinking and feeling and saying. They want to like spy on us, like we would spy on our ex, like they want to get, they want to deep dive, you know, detective work, into every single thing that you have going on in your life, your thoughts, your feelings, your ideas.
Laura: 27:05
They are interested in knowing. You know why. Because they want to make sure that they’re number one, yeah, all the time. How is it going to affect me, every single thing in their life? How’s it going to affect me? So, like, whenever you’re having a private conversation with another adult, they’re listening, right, because they want to know how’s this going to affect me, like what’s going to happen? Right, and so like they’re obsessed with you. So when they want attention and they’re trying to like activate you, to like give them attention, give them attention and they’ll usually calm down, sure.
Michaela: 27:45
Yeah, that’s a good one. I know at our house my kids have ADHD Well, at least one of them diagnosed and it’s really hard for them to sit still, to pay attention, to eat, and this is a huge struggle for a lot of parents that I work with, and so you know some of that is probably activating the caregiving system. And now that I think about it, and also you know that they don’t want to, they’re bored with eating, right, they don’t, they can’t handle sitting to finish food. Um, so yeah, those are. Those are good, good things. I’m going to think about that for sure.
Laura: 28:28
Yeah, and so boredom is actually an. It’s a very, very difficult emotion for humans to tolerate. Boredom leads to overthinking. Boredom leads to anxiousness. Boredom leads to depression. Sometimes because we confuse boredom for like loneliness or for worthlessness, we get confused by it. Boredom we don’t really know what it is Like. Cause bored honestly, it’s just like I got nothing going on today. I’m kind of bored, I’m just chilling.
Michaela: 29:03
Yeah, oh man, but our whole society, society is has changed over the past 30 years to become more increasingly increasing. The boredom issue, right, the dopamine? Um, now commercials are not 10, three, 10 second commercial. You know sections, it’s it’s 31 second clips and you know everything is a short and it’s just like it’s designed to just give us a little dopamine surge. And so we are constantly, constantly seeking that dopamine surge and that creates boredom. When we don’t have that going for us, we feel blah, we feel bored, we, we don’t. Nothing gets us that excited anymore.
Laura: 29:49
Yeah, and you know, teenagers have a lower dopamine baseline and so, for them, being bored feels 10 times worse than an adult being bored, because their dopamine levels at baseline are significantly lower.
Laura: 30:07
But then when they do get that burst, it spikes significantly higher, right, and so that’s why teenagers are so like reckless sometimes and so like desperately emotionally volatile, because they’re like I need something to spike this, because just being normal and bored, like my baseline, doesn’t feel good, yeah, feels uncomfortable, and so I’m just trying to find the next thing that’s going to give me that spike again.
Laura: 30:37
And so when we think about, like, the different personality types you know, the worrier or the, the person who is kind of, or the person who is kind of, I don’t know, just la-di-da, like I don’t really care, I’ve sort of have, no, I’m just going to go with the flow you know, the worrier is going to be far more likely to struggle when they’re bored than the sort of like la-di-da person who’s just going to be like oh well, boredom, like I’ll just go find something else to do, like I’ll just kind of, like I’m just whatever, I’m not really. Maybe that’s that optimism versus pessimism, right. Like when we are pessimistic and we’re worrying and we’re overthinking, then we’re overthinking in a negative way. Sometimes we can go the opposite and overthink in a positive way, but be paralyzed by our ideas. We just like think and think, and think, and think, and think, and think and think. We never actually do it, never actually take action. We just sort of think about what we want to do, but we don’t actually do it.
Michaela: 31:44
And then that gives us guilt and all that stuff when you’re talking. It made me think of like in that boredom that leads to overthinking, which leads to like insomnia, right, because at nighttime we don’t have as much going on, we’re kind of done, we’re not supposed to be watching TV, we’re not, we’re supposed to be off our phone, and so we’re having this extra time with nothing going on to kind of boost that overthinking and kind of worry stuff. What’s going on tomorrow? You know what happened through the day, like oh, I said that thing, my friends are going to not like me. I’m worried, I need to check my phone, I wonder if they said anything, and kind of just like over worrying at nighttime.
Laura: 32:25
Yeah, nighttime is a time where everything sort of settles down and then there’s no distractions, there’s no connection, right? So if we’re feeling lonely or bored, like especially for kids, if a kid has no adult and no way to access that adult, like they feel terrified and alone sometimes that’s why kids can’t sleep on their own, because they’re suddenly like left to their own devices and they don’t know what to do.
Michaela: 32:56
Yeah, and then they or you have the kid that’s getting up out of bed and going and bugging their parent Like I can’t sleep, can I get a glass of water, can you sing me a song, can you read me another story? And the parents, like just go to bed.
Laura: 33:12
Yeah, it’s literally separation anxiety. It’s like I can’t be alone in this room while you guys will. One I’m going to miss out because you guys are still awake, okay. So like that’s a whole thing and I need to know everything you’re doing all the time in order to make sure that I’m safe. So I don’t like knowing that you guys are going and doing things that I’m not aware of because I’m going to sleep, so I’m going to miss out. Fomo, fomo.
Laura: 33:37
But then we also have the separation anxiety of, like when you’re asleep and then they wake up and they don’t know what to do and they can’t come and get you, like they no longer have access to their caregiver, and that’s like a really scary thing and they might not be able to, like explain that to you, but they’re feeling it on the inside. It’s that fear, reaction. It’s that most of these things are automatic. The things that we’re discussing today are automatic thoughts, are automatic processes that happen, right, you know. And so sometimes people have OCD and they’re confused by, or they’re.
Laura: 34:18
Sometimes we look at, we think, anxiety, but really it’s OCD, mm, hmm, and because that obsessive part, right, and then a lot of people with autism tendencies or autism like traits will experience that obsessive part, and then a lot of people with autism tendencies or autism-like traits will experience that obsessive thinking right? So those are just ways that we’re wired that will create this overthinking. If we have some kind of neurodiversity, it’s really common that one of those symptoms is this overthinking, this rumination, these thought loops, and what we have to do is we have to break ourselves out of those thought loops by engaging in something else, and usually they’ll break, like the loop will stop If you. It’s kind of like if you’re swirling water, you know, like insert something in the water and the swirl stops, like it’s not, it loses its way. So we need to really just break the loop.
Michaela: 35:17
Yeah, I know, I see this in my own kid, like he. We were playing with balloons, we found these balloons, we blew them up and since that like first thing in the morning mom, can I have the balloon? Can we blow up more balloons, mom, balloons. It’s so like it just gets stuck in that kid’s head and he just cannot stop thinking about the thing that he wants to do and he just like asks over and, over and over again until he gets it.
Laura: 35:46
Yeah, and on a lot of levels, that’s a very helpful trait to be able to assign focus to something so specific and until that thing is done right, or to do a really specific deep dive.
Laura: 36:04
That’s helpful in your career to be able to focus on one thing. Maybe there’s research there, maybe there’s like a specific skill set. We can use it, and then we can overuse it. Right, so it’s not a problem until it’s a problem. So that’s kind of how we have to allow ourselves to have these traits and patterns and not pathologize them all the time.
Michaela: 36:28
But we also can take that as an opportunity to learn that we can calm our nervous system and we can break the loop and get you know, reframe it into something else. If it’s something negative, that all or nothing thinking, we can reframe it and think about it in a different way, like there’s things we can do to fix that. Even if it’s not an anxiety disorder or OCD or something like that, there’s things that we can do to fix that, even if it’s not an anxiety disorder or OCD or something like that. There’s things that we can do to help ourselves if we notice that we have those traits, or we can help our kids learn how to do that if they have those traits.
Laura: 37:02
Yeah, I think that’s right. I think one thing that I say to kids sometimes is hey, did you know you don’t have to finish that task in order to be okay, or you don’t have to solve that problem in order to be okay. You can be okay even without finishing what you’re doing. You can be okay even if without solving that problem. Right, we can end this task before we’re done and move on to the next activity and you’ll still be okay. But a lot of the time, the thinking is designed to settle your nervous system. That’s what we’re actually trying to do. So your nervous system is worked up and it’s like okay, I’m thinking, I’m thinking, I’m thinking I’m going to solve it, solve it, solve it, solve it. But we have to know oh no, I don’t have to solve that in order to be okay oh no, I don’t have to solve that in order to be okay.
Michaela: 37:55
I also like using the container to help when that doesn’t work. Just like knowing that we can be okay doesn’t work. The container is very helpful to letting us use that to help us feel okay.
Laura: 38:05
Yeah, for sure. If we kind of create a container in our mind that can hold this thing until I can return back to it, right, then we’re basically saying, okay, hold that right here, maybe it’s in a shoe box or like in a bag that you can kind of carry with you or whatever. You’re putting that in the container and then you can come back to it later if you want to. Most of the time we don’t need to. Most of the time, when these are automatic thoughts and they’re things, they’re problems that don’t need solving Right, so we’re really going to do too much. Anyway, we might as well just let them sit and we’ll come back to them if we need to.
Michaela: 38:40
Right Once we have more information. Yeah, yeah, that seems to be really helpful.
Laura: 38:46
Yeah, no-transcript. But the reality is, those things are less helpful. It’s like these things don’t get changed through shame, right? No, change doesn’t come as a result of shame. Change comes as a result of acceptance and then intention.
Michaela: 39:34
Yeah, and I like that, like I really like that, and I think that using that with kind of a meditation or like a mindfulness exercise, where you just kind of accept it and let it pass through, like what you’re like, okay, that’s a thought that happened, I’m going to let it go, and then I’m going to anchor myself in the present moment, using grounding skills, and then I’m going to be mindful and I’m going to pay attention to my body and, do you know, mindfulness exercise or whatever, to kind of calm my nervous system.
Laura: 40:07
Yeah, absolutely. And what we also want to be able to do is seek connection, because sometimes the antidote to distress and over overthinking is connection. We need to have somebody else who can distract us, and that can occur in person, or a lot of times people use their phones to connect, which isn’t entirely a bad thing. Now, that can’t be the only thing, right. So we need to have a variety of internal resources that we have on our own and then connected resources that we can use with another person. So we want to teach ourselves to help ourselves get okay as early as possible, but knowing that it’s okay to reach out to somebody and have them kind of distract you if you’re overthinking and you can’t get out of that thought loop, like sometimes just reaching out for help can be as simple as saying like hey friend, what are you doing? Right, you know, tell me a joke right, you know, tell me a joke.
Michaela: 41:17
How do we get out of the pattern of wanting them to give us advice about this thing? Because we we don’t want to fall into the loop of of trying to have the person fix it for us, because it doesn’t work. You can ask for advice, they can give advice, but you don’t want to. That can’t be the way of settling your nervous system, if that makes sense.
Laura: 41:33
Yeah, I think that’s a good question and I don’t entirely know the answer. I mean, I think what you said is advice doesn’t work most of the time because these aren’t problems that need solving, at least not in that moment. So, before we try to solve the problem, the problem is that we’re not calm Right, so we solve the right problem and then you can work through with whatever advice you need after that. Yeah, but you have to solve the problem of being over activated before you can actually solve the problem that you’re overthinking about.
Michaela: 42:07
Yes, exactly that’s the answer. That’s the answer yes, solve the right problem.
Laura: 42:16
Solve the right problem. And so when we’re overthinking, we’re often overthinking the wrong problems, and so we want to switch into trying to solve the right problem, which is that something is off, we are out of our window of tolerance, we’re totally dysregulated, exactly, and that’s what needs to kind of come down and get regulated again.
Michaela: 42:43
And then to circle back to what we started talking about is, you know, trying to use food as medicine. So I like this, because there’s obviously medicine, medicines that can help in these situations if you have an anxiety disorder, but what you want to, but maybe it’s as simple as trying to just eat something differently. So to diversify the gut, you’re going to want to eat whole foods. A variety of plant-based foods are going to help diversify the gut microbiota. So, you know, obviously like avoiding the processed foods, things that are heavily, you know, changed from their original thing. So obviously you’re not going to eat a sweet potato raw. You have to process it in some ways, right. So, but, but, but you know cooking it and it can be, you know, in a variety of forms, but trying to get a variety of different foods.
Michaela: 43:44
Kombucha is really good. You want to make sure that you’re not finding a kombucha that’s really high in sugar, because that will decrease the positive effects. Yogurt if you’re avoiding dairy, there’s good dairy-free yogurts. You can take a supplement, a prebiotic, probiotic, and then, you know, just trying to avoid processed foods or not sugar you want to avoid sugar and just decreasing because it increases the harmful bacteria. Um, sauerkraut, um, kimchi. They actually have a really some decent options for kimchi. That’s, uh, vegan too, so that doesn’t have the seafood piece of it, which some people may not like. And then I just was reading about this the other day there is a I haven’t tried it yet it’s a fermented coconut Kim, kim for Kim, for I don’t know if I’m saying that right, but I need to look into that and try that, but that sounds kind of interesting too. So there’s lots of options out there to add more of the good, healthy bacteria to your gut.
Laura: 44:49
I love that. You know what I was thinking. We should do, as you’re describing this is we should create a challenge with like, eliminate one thing and add in like two things every day for like I don’t know 14 days and see if we feel better. For like I don’t know 14 days and see if we feel better. Yeah, I like that. So we take out one thing and add into two whole foods One, not good for you food yeah.
Laura: 45:18
I don’t know, I have found that hard right. We could totally do that. It doesn’t sound that hard Right, and it’s only for two weeks and it’s an experiment. We’re doing research here. This matters it does. I love that. Okay, I think we should do it. And then we should talk about how we’ve completely changed our entire brain structures because we stopped eating garbage and started eating good food.
Michaela: 45:39
Yes, that’s so good. I know I love sugar. I’m not going to lie. That is my, that’s my weakness, that’s my. That’s the thing that’s hard.
Laura: 45:48
That’s the thing. That’s hard. Yeah, I love Chex Mix. It’s okay, we’ll come up with something.
Michaela: 45:56
We’ll figure it out, yeah, and then we’ll check back in and talk about it. I love that.
Laura: 46:05
Let’s do it Well. Thank you so much for this conversation today. I think this was incredibly helpful and I am looking forward to our challenge our food challenge.
Michaela: 46:14
So me too. This was awesome. Thank you, this will be great.
Laura: 46:19
Thank you for listening to. Why am I like this? If you like our show, please leave us a rating and a review, and please follow the show and share it with your friends. This episode was written and produced by me, laura Wood and Michelle Bieber. Our theme song is Making Ends Meet by Thick as Thieves, and a special thanks to Ben Avery Counseling and Coaching and Active Healing Psychiatric Services for sponsoring our show.
