The journey of understanding and overcoming toxic relationships is a path fraught with self-discovery, pain, and eventual empowerment. Our recent podcast episode delves into the intricate world of emotional resilience, highlighting the experiences of individuals who find themselves repeatedly ensnared in harmful relationship patterns. With the expertise of Laura Wood, a seasoned trauma therapist, and Mishayla Beaver, a psychiatric nurse practitioner, we embark on a quest to uncover the roots of unhealthy relationships and pave the way towards personal growth and healing.
The podcast begins by exploring the nature of toxic relationships and their signs, which often remain elusive to those entangled within them. The discussion sheds light on the emotional and psychological damage that such interactions can inflict. The hard truth is that toxic behaviors can originate not just from our partners but also from within ourselves, emphasizing the need for personal accountability. Laura and Mishayla point out the significant role childhood experiences play in shaping our expectations and relationship dynamics in adulthood, leading many into familiar but unhealthy cycles.
Setting boundaries is a theme that resonates throughout the episode. The experts discuss our inherent rights to say no, demand respect, and not tolerate abuse. There is a common misconception that trauma can justify abusive behavior; however, the conversation steers towards the importance of not using trauma as an excuse to harm others. Establishing boundaries is highlighted not as a way to create distance but as a crucial step towards ensuring safety and fostering open communication.
The episode then shifts focus to addressing toxicity by examining the importance of self-connection and accountability. Recognizing one’s role in perpetuating unhealthy dynamics is the first step toward initiating change. The dialogue touches upon the necessity of effective communication and counseling in resolving conflicts and improving relationships. Listeners are guided through the process of dismantling misconceptions around emotions and intent, emphasizing that feelings are not facts, and misunderstandings do not inherently assign blame.
As we delve deeper into the conversation, the significance of balancing our attachment needs within relationships is examined. Emotional reliance on partners can create shaky foundations and the potential for toxicity. The podcast offers insights into the cries for connection and the self-protective mechanisms that emerge when these needs are neglected. Listeners learn about fostering genuine intimacy and the balancing act of maintaining emotional independence while fulfilling the human need for close bonds.
In wrapping up this powerful session, personal accountability in relationships is revisited, underscoring the responsibility we hold for our feelings and reactions. The discussion challenges the unrealistic expectation of never experiencing hurt in relationships, acknowledging that pain is an inevitable part of human connections. Through self-reflection and the strategies shared, listeners are encouraged to embark on their journeys of fostering emotional resilience and building healthier, more fulfilling relationships.
This episode is a testament to the transformative power of understanding and healing from relational trauma. As Laura and Mishayla guide us through this emotional labyrinth, listeners are equipped with the knowledge and tools to break the cycle of toxic relationships and step into a future of healthier personal connections and emotional strength.
Read the full transcript
Laura: 0:00
Hello and welcome to. Why Am I Like this? The podcast for those who didn’t get enough hugs as a child? I’m Laura Wood and I’m a trauma therapist.
Michaela : 0:10
Hi and I’m Mishayla Beaver. I’m a psychiatric nurse practitioner. So, mishayla, why are we doing this podcast? I’m so glad that you asked. We want to help you understand yourself a bit better, how the things you learned about yourself and the world in a childhood are still affecting you today. We want to figure out why are we like this, those random things about ourselves that we might wonder about, like why am I so jumpy? Why am I so anxious? Why do I take everything personally? Why are my thoughts so negative? Why do I feel like I have to fix everything all the time?
Laura: 0:44
Yes, and we are talking about why we stay in toxic relationships today. So we’re going to try to answer the following questions what does it even mean to be in a toxic relationship? How do we get into these relationship cycles and how can we change these patterns? So let’s get into it. What even is a toxic relationship? What does that mean? Great question.
Michaela : 1:10
So I think that a toxic relationship is one in which one or both people are not supporting the other person and almost even damaging the other person emotionally and psychologically. What do you think?
Laura: 1:27
Okay, yeah, I think that damaging part is important, like if you’re feeling emotionally harmed and unsafe. That’s what I think of is you’re unsafe in your relationship, right, like you’re feeling like it’s eroding at you, it’s toxic, it’s literally like a poison, and so I was looking at the one of my favorite websites, which is called loveisrespectorg. They sort of provide this relationship spectrum. An unhealthy relationship would be one where your partner is not communicating, they’re being disrespectful, it’s not trusting, it’s dishonest, trying to take control, only spending time together, not spending time with anybody else. They’re pressuring you into activities or you are pressuring them into activities, like.
Laura: 2:22
I think one thing that’s important as we talk through this is that you might be behaving in toxic ways as well, right, like we often think about oh, this other person is doing this to me, but like I think there’s a huge aspect of accountability here, right?
Laura: 2:38
So in a healthy relationship, the partners both of them are communicating, they’re respectful, they’re trusting, they’re honest, things are equal. They’re allowed to enjoy personal time outside of the relationship. They’re making mutual choices, connecting on what they want to do. It’s not being pushed by one or the other. And they’re economic and financial partners, right? So one major thing that can start seeming benign is, you know that economic inequality Like if we’re in a relationship where there’s somebody who is controlling all the money, then eventually that could become an even bigger push for control and different things and you might feel like you owe that person or you might feel right, like dependent on that person. So anytime you kind of feel like you don’t have a say, I think that’s another way to recognize that the relationship may not be super healthy and may even be toxic. We don’t always know when that’s happening for us.
Michaela : 3:49
Sure, I mean, I think that there’s a, there’s like a line, right, so like it’s a toxic relationship, there may also be abuse happening in that relationship emotional abuse and physical abuse, sexual abuse. But then you know those are, those are easier to spot, those are more well-defined. But when you start sliding into this more toxic relationship, there may be some emotional abuse that’s happening, but it’s it’s not as overt, it’s not as obvious to everybody around, it’s more manipulative.
Laura: 4:20
Yeah, I mean, abuse is not always really well-defined, I think a lot of the time, like you said, like that physical abuse, or like directly, like if somebody’s calling me names, like I hear, people share different concerns and it’s it’s not always clear to us when we’re in the middle of it. Sure, yeah, that that is abusive and that’s a hard thing to accept. Also, you know, to have to accept that you’re in an abusive relationship, or that you’re being abused, or that your partner, whom you love and possibly depend on or are you know all these different things that they’re abusing you. Yeah, right, that’s hard to wrap your head around.
Michaela : 5:00
How could I have let myself get into that situation, kind of that shame and blame that we talked about before?
Laura: 5:06
Yeah, and I think one thing that stands out to me is the sense that why would someone do that Right? It’s hard to fathom. Why would they do that to me, though they love me Right? Why would they hurt me? But it turns out that both can be true at the same time.
Michaela : 5:21
Yeah, that’s hard. Yeah, I’m so glad that we’re talking about this and that we’re kind of bringing light to this and trying to, you know, help people to understand a little bit more about toxic relationships and how they affect us, and kind of like the next step, like why do we get into these relationship cycles? Like why do they keep happening? Why did they start to begin with?
Laura: 5:48
There’s so many things from our childhood that influence the way we behave as adults. If you think about, our entire foundation for what we expect from the world is created during our childhood. So if we expect for people to treat us a certain way because that’s what we know, then when that’s happening we might not feel uncomfortable, we might not notice that that’s not okay and we also might seek that out because it is comfortable, it is familiar, because unfamiliar things are kind of uncomfortable. Right, like it’s, you know, you hear, like the devil, you know right.
Michaela : 6:31
Sometimes safety can feel scary actually, and so we seek out situations in which, that is, it would be comfortable to us if we that’s all we knew knew, yeah, and also like what wires together, fires together, like you always say. And so you know, we’re attracted to people who remind us of our unhealthy relationships, our family dynamics, and even in an unconscious effort to kind of heal those wounds.
Laura: 7:05
Oh my gosh, life is a constant traumatic reenactment, trying to change outcomes, trying to get our needs met, trying to repeat something that didn’t go well enough in the first place. So we hold on to these patterns, like we’re saying I want that to not have happened that way. So if I can have a similar situation but change the outcome now, then that will somehow erase what had happened in the first place. Right, like I’ll feel better. So it’s basically an open wound, that’s saying, in order for me to heal, I have to have a different outcome and so I’m going to keep doing the same or similar things, so that once that ends and it like goes great and it’s fine, then I can be okay after that. Right, yeah, we can’t repeat like we can’t, it’s over.
Laura: 8:16
We’ll never be there again yeah, we’ll never be there again. It’s very difficult to accept that sometimes, because then what we’re saying is oh so you will never have your childhood needs met.
Michaela : 8:32
Well, and then we end up playing that role in these current relationships, the same role that we did as when we were a child. And then we, when it ends, it ends in a same, similar painful way, just kind of reaffirming that same thing over and over again, causing more damage and even more solidifying that you know, we, we are unlovable or we are that thing that we believe that we are.
Laura: 9:09
Right, we’re validating that belief over and over and over. Therefore, we’re strengthening those neural pathways. We are continuing to double down on these unhelpful or unhealthy beliefs about ourselves. Like that I’m responsible for other people’s emotions. Right, how many of us 100% know like? Can we really be honest with ourselves and say I am not responsible for other people’s emotions?
Michaela : 9:42
Yeah, no, not 100% of us can say that.
Laura: 9:46
Yep, Right, I mean I might be able to say that like 90%, but there’s still like a tiny bit of me that’s saying like well, but except for in this situation you are.
Michaela : 10:00
Well, and it’s so hard, even with parenting, and like how we, how we treat our kids, like it’s so ingrained, as, like I catch myself a hundred times a day being like that’s going to hurt that person’s feelings or that’s going to affect that, that that makes me sad, like I have to catch myself not saying, to not say those things, because there’s still, because that’s what we heard, that’s what is so ingrained in us and we’re just continuing to teach our kids the same thing, um, if we’re not careful that that they have to be in control of other people’s feelings.
Laura: 10:37
Yeah, totally I. What you just said reminded me of something you know when we’re I talked to parents about like we think we’re teaching empathy, right, we think we’re teaching communication. Like we think we’re teaching a child to like think about somebody, like not be selfish, right, like think about somebody else. But what we’re really doing is like teaching them emotional manipulation. We’re teaching them that they are responsible for other people’s feelings. We’re also teaching them that their feelings are not as important as everyone else’s.
Laura: 11:14
And if those are messages that we believe in childhood, there is very little chance that, without intervention, we’re going to change our beliefs by the time we get into our adult relationships. If I understand that when someone else is upset, it’s my job to fix something so that they can feel better, if I understand that that’s true, there’s zero reason why I would just suddenly be like no, it isn’t right. Like I will continue to repeat that pattern until I am able to understand myself in a different perspective, like from a different role. A lot of the time when we’re in the relationship, we’re not really zooming out, we’re not able to sort of look at it objectively, which is why, like, I can’t be anybody’s therapist. I can’t be my boyfriend’s therapist, I can’t be my own couple’s therapist, right Like, that’s not a thing that I can do and do I? It’s not a thing that I want to do. I am unable to see that bigger picture for myself, and that’s why we need to have support.
Michaela : 12:27
Well, and that makes me think of, like your principles that you teach, so talk a little bit about, like the, you deserve to set boundaries, like you know. That’s what that makes me think of in that, like, we want to help our kids be able to have empathy, yes, they will develop that they’re not just going to care about themselves, but we also need to teach them these other principles, because those are the things that create healthy relationships.
Laura: 12:57
One of the first, most important things is you have the right to say no, yes, and you deserve to be treated with respect. No one has the right to abuse you and it’s never your fault If somebody else is harming you. You can’t earn that Right. You deserve to be treated with respect and kindness and dignity. Treated with respect and kindness and dignity, and there’s nothing that you can do to deserve to be abused. And then on the flip side this goes for everyone no matter how upset you get, it’s not okay to hurt yourself, to hurt another person, to damage property or to like hurt animals. Not okay to do so.
Laura: 13:48
If you’re getting upset and you’re causing harm, you know if your trauma responds right, because this is a reactant, as we said. So maybe in my childhood I was taught that when we get upset, we scream and yell and we throw things right. So then I take that into my adult relationships and when I’m in a fight and I get overwhelmed or I get upset, I start screaming and yelling and throwing things. Well, I can make that make sense, but that doesn’t make it acceptable. That doesn’t make it okay. But that doesn’t make it acceptable. That doesn’t make it okay. So when someone tries to use their traumatic history as a reason why it’s okay for them and why we have to tolerate their abusive behavior. That’s where we can say, like no, I can can be empathetic.
Laura: 14:46
I can have empathy for you, right, and the fact that this is your traumatic experience helps me know that it’s not my fault right and now I can strongly enough say to you I love you and support you and I’m not abandoning you or leaving you or whatever, but I am going to demand that you do not yell and scream or throw things at me. I have to leave your presence if that’s happening, right, like I want to continue this conversation, I want to work through this with you, but I have to walk away if it’s no longer safe.
Michaela : 15:22
It’s so good.
Laura: 15:23
And I don’t think that we have a good enough sense of accountability in that, in most relationships at least.
Michaela : 15:33
It’s scary, you know. You don’t know how to communicate these things in a healthy way, because you’re, if you’re getting things thrown at you, if somebody is yelling and screaming at you like we have our own defense mechanisms that start to go up. We start to go into our own stuff and fight or flight or whatever. We’ve probably light up our own neural pathways of getting yelled at. As a child, you know, and we’re going to, you know, maybe freeze or you know, maybe run away or handle things in a different way when we feel threatened.
Laura: 16:05
Yeah for sure, I mean, if that’s not only their experience of chaotic, abusive interactions in childhood and that’s your experience of chaotic, abusive interactions in childhood and that’s your experience of chaotic abusive interactions in childhood, when then you’re going to end up in this, you know sort of what we can call a trance dance of like you’re both just reenacting stuff that happened in the past and nothing nobody’s really connected to the present moment in order to establish any kind of safety.
Michaela : 16:36
That’s so good. I think that we end up there more than you think, a lot more, and so like how do you help people who are having that experience? How do you help them get back to the present moment?
Laura: 16:57
I think first we have to connect with ourselves. We have to say I’m an active participant in this and I have the right to exist and to say no and to walk away like. We really need to connect with ourselves as an autonomous individual and not just sort of this character in this other person’s experience. We have to look at ourselves outside of the context of our relationship and who we are outside to, you know, lose the relationship or terrified to upset the other person or terrified to have any kind of disagreement where that other person is upset with us. So a lot of the time the go-to is to prevent other people from getting upset with us by never giving them a reason to be upset with us.
Laura: 18:09
And so we ignore bad behavior and we say well, you know, I’ve never done anything to for you to have to like, for you to need to treat me that way, like I didn’t do anything.
Laura: 18:19
You’re treating me this way and it’s all your fault, right?
Laura: 18:22
It’s scapegoating that other person by sort of like being perfect and like not having done anything wrong, like basically, you’re saying like I didn’t do anything, I’m the good one, right, I’m the good person here, you’re the one with the problem, and so as long as I know that I’m the good one and I’m not doing anything wrong, then I can just sort of continue to let this happen.
Laura: 18:47
And as long as I’m not, you know, initiating anything, then I’m fine, I can just let this keep going and I’m not, there’s nothing bad about what I’m doing, or there’s nothing unhealthy about what I’m doing, or there’s nothing unhealthy about what I’m doing, but that’s not accurate, like that’s not true. I have to connect with myself enough to know that, like I’m a participant in this, I’m choosing to continue this process and this pattern and I’m not doing anything to change it. And so if nothing changes, nothing changes. So we have to really connect with ourselves in our own role in this. And when you have to say, like I’m accountable for my own experience and it’s not okay for me not to say anything, it’s not okay for me not to address this, it’s not okay for me not to set this boundary.
Michaela : 19:35
Right.
Laura: 19:37
The other thing is if it’s dangerous, you need to get help and support. We need to call somebody to help and keep you safe. The National Domestic Abuse Hotline there’s 988. Danger is a whole different thing, but if it’s not physically dangerous, then you can say that’s not okay. We’re going to pick this up a different time and either go get couples counseling or agree to meet and talk about this particular thing, like at a particular time. Like write down what you feel is what you want to say, write down your boundary and just say to that person like this isn’t safe for me and it’s not okay to treat me this way.
Michaela : 20:17
Yeah, I think that that’s really important to one recognize what’s going on and understand that it’s not okay and that you can set that boundary.
Laura: 20:31
Yeah, and you have the right to say no. You have the right to have your opinion. You have the right to tell someone that what’s happening isn’t okay for you, and that doesn’t imply you don’t have to imply that the other person is a villain either.
Michaela : 20:46
Right, or that it’s just over. You know, like that you can work this out. Like. I understand that you’re upset, I understand you’re going through something like. I respect that, but I also have the right to not get yelled and screamed at and have things thrown at me.
Laura: 21:03
Right, yeah. And you know, sometimes we fall into this trap of believing that if you’re, if I’m feeling upset, then you must have done something wrong. And if you’re feeling upset, then I must have done something wrong or I have to change it. I have to do something differently. And that’s not true. I can be upset and hurt, even if you didn’t intend to do anything to hurt me.
Michaela : 21:37
Correct, it’s the. So it’s the perception of the experience that matters. Like, you and I could go through the same exact thing, but if our past is since our past is different we will have different understandings of what that same thing could be, and so it’s that perception of what that means about you as an individual that creates your emotional response to the situation. Yeah, and that’s why you can agree. That’s why you can have the same experience but not really have the same understanding of what happened.
Laura: 22:12
And the same interpretation of what other people were thinking and feeling in that moment. Right, we often assign what somebody, we assign motive and we assign malice to other people’s behavior. All the time, pretty regularly. Even our kids, right, yes, all the time, pretty regularly. Even our kids, right, yes, how many times are you like, oh, this kid is manipulating me? Well, four or so. You know what I mean.
Michaela : 22:48
It’s like it’s not happening, yeah, but you can feel like it is because you feel helpless, you feel lack of control in that situation from your kids, from your relationship, from your partners, like those are things that can happen. You can feel that way. It doesn’t make it true.
Laura: 23:08
That’s right. Feelings are not facts. It doesn’t make it true. And if someone comes to you and says, hey, what you said really hurt me and you know I felt this way, or whatever, even if that wasn’t your intent or if they’re misunderstanding what you said, that doesn’t make you a monster Like you can just be like oh shoot, I’m so sorry that you were hurt, I that I hurt you, you know. Can we talk more about it? Because that wasn’t what I meant. Can you tell me more? Like what was going on for you at that time? Like how can I right? Because just because I didn’t mean it that way doesn’t mean you can’t be hurt. And just because you were hurt doesn’t mean I’m a jerk and need to be like blamed or shamed or any of that stuff and so I don’t have to be defensive about that. You’re confronting me and asking me to connect with you and attune to you is not a threat to me, right?
Michaela : 24:12
It shouldn’t be.
Laura: 24:13
Right. In a healthy relationship it’s not a threat. Yeah, In a toxic relationship it is. It feels like a threat. That’s another thing that we can kind of think of, too is that if you constantly feel like there’s some kind of threat to you or that you’re a threat to them, or that there’s all this defensiveness going on, you know the relationship might be toxic because one or both of you is struggling with your own stuff and you’re not able to feel calm and confident enough to address it.
Michaela : 24:48
Yeah right. Well, it makes me think of, like, people who have trauma and they’re trying to start a new relationship, or they’re in a relationship and they have this constant need for some kind of validation, to to protect them, like if you give me this, then I know that you’re not going to cheat on me, you’re not going to hurt me, you’re not going to leave me, like as if this thing is going to protect them from those things. But it doesn’t, it never can and it never will, and so but it puts a strain on that relationship to the point where, like it, that causes toxicity, right, and they’re just trying to get their needs met in that situation and it doesn’t work. It only lasts a short time before they need that again.
Laura: 25:47
Mm-hmm, and in that sense, that person is really putting so much pressure on their partner to help them achieve their own stability, right? So what? We? Not only am I not responsible for other people’s feelings. Other people are not responsible for mine. I am accountable to my own stability and you are accountable to your own stability.
Laura: 26:16
Every adult is accountable for ensuring that they are capable of experiencing negative emotions without harming themselves, harming others, damaging property, hurting animals. That is an adult’s responsibility. And so when a partner says to the other partner, well, you have to give me this, because I don’t feel good without it, that’s problematic. And so, as the other partner, it’s okay to say I understand where you’re at right now and I can be. Help heal those wounds for yourself, so that you can know that you can be okay Even if you don’t search through my phone every day. You can be okay Even if you know I don’t copy you on all my emails, so that you know that what I’m talking to people about, or whatever, right?
Laura: 27:20
I think in that case we’re looking for this guarantee that we’ll never get hurt. That doesn’t exist Exactly. You know, denying that pain exists in relationships and in your life is unhelpful. The world is a dangerous place. People harm others on purpose and unintentionally all the time. There’s no scenario in which you’re in a relationship with another human being and you never get your feelings hurt.
Michaela : 27:56
Yeah, can’t be done. That’s a good point. And I think that, like we want to just like, in some cases we can go to that extreme and just write everybody off like you hurt me and I’m done, and just I can’t, I can’t be friends with you, can’t work with you, like we’re done, and so no one’s gonna ever live up to that expectation and so you end up being really lonely and we’re human beings and human beings need social connection.
Laura: 28:26
We sure do. So we have this instinct to connect, which is based on our humanness and the fact that if we didn’t, if we were alone all the time, there would be no more humans. And then, as an infant, obviously you can’t make it on the streets. You need somebody to take care of you. So your life literally depends on someone loving you enough to care for you and feed you and whatever right, and that’s our attachment need. And so when we’re feeling hurt or when we’re feeling alone, we might have what we call an attachment cry, right Like where someone’s reaching out, where I’m saying I need you right now and that’s okay, there’s nothing bad about that, because in a relationship we help each other and we support each other. That’s not ownership, that’s support. And then, unfortunately, we have the opposite of attachment cry, when we reach and reach and reach and we get rejected and rejected and rejected and we get slapped away and we get left alone and we don’t have that connection that we needed. So now we have what’s called a defense against the attachment cry, which is basically a way to minimize your own need for connection and swing way on the opposite direction so that you never feel that pain of rejection again.
Laura: 29:58
So defense against attachment cry sounds like this I don’t need anybody anyway, I can do this all on my own. I don’t need anybody anyway, I can do this all on my own. I don’t even like people. I don’t want to be in a relationship, I just value my independence, like I don’t want to have anything to do with any other person. I don’t want to deal with other people’s crap, I don’t want them in my business. I don’t want anybody knowing anything that’s going on with me. I’m hyper independent.
Laura: 30:24
And you know, when I see those rom-coms and when I see people like PDA, like it disgusts me, like disgusts, right, those people who are just like ew, like how could anybody like? Oh, all this lovey-dovey stuff, right? And you can sense that visceral disgust when people talk like that, right, that’s our defense against attachment cry. And every human has both. Every human has the attachment cry and the defense. It’s not a bad thing, it’s just a thing. And so when we catch ourselves in those moments, because we’ve all said stuff like that, right, like ew, valentine’s Day is for amateurs, whatever, like it’s just, I don’t even need a valentine. Well, you don’t have one.
Michaela : 31:06
So whatever, you know well, and I think that, like our kids, our kids say like anger, anger almost is it decreases that attachment too. And you might hear your kids be like I hate you totally, you know, like get away from me, I don’t want you near me. Right, that’s their defense against attachment, because if you don’t come attached to me, then I’m worthless. What does that mean about me?
Laura: 31:35
Right. And so it’s easier for me to pretend like I didn’t like you anyway, mm-hmm anyway, and that I’m better off alone, than for me to really embody and experience the pain that I feel of being rejected or being hurt or being left. And so you know, that kind of going back to we have to connect with ourselves. We can’t pretend that that’s not a thing. Like demanding that another person will never hurt us is unhelpful, it’s impossible, it’s unhelpful. You know, shaming people when they do hurt you, and like assigning malice and evil and bad, like you’re the worst, like you’re this, you’re a monster. Well, no, they’re a person and you got hurt and let’s continue this in a healthy, adult way so that we can repair the relationship, right. So we kind of go to these defenses when we’re feeling vulnerable and scared and at risk of being rejected or hurt, because that pain is so painful, it’s the worst, right? Like I don’t like the way that feels.
Laura: 32:45
Right and people will do anything to avoid those feelings, absolutely it is almost our entire life’s work to completely avoid ever feeling that feeling again. That’s why it’s like, well, I guess I’ll, just I’m never going to get another relationship, right, I’m going gonna be single forever when I’m 20 and I just broke up with my partner, right, like okay, so it’s. It’s that we have to kind of project that strength and independence and defense in order to support ourselves sometimes through that pain. But what’s important is to know that we can handle it if we are alone, right, like we don’t have to stay in these relationships just because it’s a relationship.
Michaela : 33:32
I think that’s really really big what you just said, like, and I think that it’s scary we, but we can be okay even when we’re not in a relationship. Mm-hmm, we can. We can be okay even when we’re not in a relationship.
Michaela : 33:46
We can, we can be okay, yeah, and I think that, like having that internal safety and security and love for yourself is a huge part of that. If you don’t love yourself, if you don’t believe that you are worth something, it makes it a lot harder to be safe and secure on your own. It’s like what if this is the only person that will ever love me.
Laura: 34:11
I find that statistically unlikely, right but it’s how you feel in that moment.
Michaela : 34:18
You know like we can come up with all kinds of reasons to be, to be scared and to avoid feeling that pain.
Laura: 34:27
Oh my gosh, absolutely. I mean especially if like. So you know, when we think about the characteristics of the people who raised us. So, as we were kind of talking about, as we were preparing for this exercise, dr Sutton Hendricks created this. It’s called a MAGO exercise. It goes through five categories of things that essentially you’re going to reenact in your adult relationships until you get therapy right. So the first one, so it’s negative characteristics of the people who raised you. Positive characteristics of the people who raised you.
Laura: 35:01
You’re always going to be looking for those particular things. They’re going to stand out to you. They’re important in your brain, right? Because when you were a kid, those characteristics were the most impactful characteristics in your life. They caused you the most pain and they caused you the most joy. So those characteristics are critically important. You’re going to think about them, you’re going to seek them out on both ends.
Laura: 35:24
And then what you longed for as a child, how you wanted to feel as a child you’re always going to be seeking those feelings. You’re always going to be trying to get that. So if you always wanted to feel like you were special, right? Everything is going to sort of be colored with that lens of like. Is this making me feel special or is this making me not feel special? Those are going to be the things that I pick out about that person and like the things that they do that make me feel special or don’t make me feel special, like it’s always going to be about that. So, if you wanted to feel you know, valued, if you wanted to feel appreciated, right, listened to, cared for, then that’s what you’re going to seek out and you’re just going to constantly seek that.
Laura: 36:18
And then, responding to frustration in childhood, that defense against attachment cry, you’re going to use the same ones, like you’re going to keep using that defense over and over and over, right? So for me, um, when I was a kid, I was hyper independent. That was my defense. I was just running away Like I don’t need anybody, I’m going to do my own thing, like I’m going to I’m fine, I’ve, you know, f you guys, I don’t need anything, I’m going to handle it myself. Right? That’s my total defense. I always did that, and so in my adult relationships, when we’re experiencing conflict, sometimes my instinct is to just blow the whole thing up, right? Just to be like whatever, I’m fine, I’m going to be on my own.
Laura: 37:01
What I was saying to my mom over the weekend was like I’m just going to move to an Island, I’m going to take my dogs and I’m going to just sell everything I own and I’m going to move to an Island and I’m going to be perfectly happy. And she was like, well, I think you would still want to see everybody in your life. You know what I mean. Like you have a family, like this is. I was like, nah, literally, I was like I don’t think, so I’m gonna be fine, like I’m out, just peace. And so that’s like my instinct, right, it’s just disappear, run, yeah, that’s, I didn’t do that. I’m here, guys, so it’s okay. But right, so it’s okay to have that instinct, because I’m aware that that comes from you know, my old habits. That comes from my foundation of like how to handle pain in relationships, whether that’s a friendship, whether that’s work, your romantic life, your kids, anything.
Michaela : 37:58
I before we talked about this today. I had never heard about this before, and it’s so fascinating how these things play out and are seen like they just make sense.
Laura: 38:14
It’s so weird.
Michaela : 38:16
I know, like part of for me, like they called me the peacemaker as a kid, my mom always called me the peacemaker and I’m like crap, like okay, I did. I tried to always make people happy. Like that was my like response to frustration, or like other people’s frustration, like I wanted to fix things for everybody. So, yeah, that’s so interesting. Like I just want to like make it better.
Laura: 38:45
Yeah, that’s so interesting. Like I just want to like make it better, make other people happy, yeah. And eventually, you know, we kind of realized like oh, that’s not actually helping me achieve my goal of feeling good and loved and important and valued, right, cause those were the things that I wanted to feel. I want to feel loved, I want to feel cared for Right, and this isn’t necessarily things you didn’t get, it’s just like the thing that you wanted, right. Like this is what I. I want to feel cared for Right, and this isn’t necessarily things you didn’t get, it’s just like the thing that you wanted, right. Like this is what I want to feel, this feeling. I want to feel loved and cared for and valued. That’s important to me.
Laura: 39:11
And so in a relationship, I’m going to have a more difficult time feeling loved and cared for and valued. If, like Michelle, I’m taking care of everyone else, well then I’m going to feel depleted, I’m going to feel resentment, I’m going to feel maybe rage, right, because I’m not going to get what I need Right. We often repeat these cycles, like trying to get that feeling, but we’re really doing the opposite, without even knowing it.
Michaela : 39:44
Yeah, this like made me think of this guy that I dated back when in my like twenties, and I remember like I really liked him and looking back now I don’t I don’t even know why I liked him, like we didn’t make sense at all, but like I totally changed all of these things about myself or the way that I like did life, like stopped hanging out with my friends, like did all these things to like make him happy, like to like please him, and of course, it didn’t work. The relationship was never going to work because I wasn’t myself in that relationship, like I just wanted to seek out his approval Totally.
Laura: 40:30
Right.
Laura: 40:31
So yeah we have to be our authentic self, and that goes back to connecting with yourself, right, if you really want to live an authentic and fulfilled life, including in your relationship, you have to be authentic, because if you can’t get what you need unless you sacrifice yourself, you’re really not getting what you need and that’s enough of a reason to move on In relationships. I think sometimes we’re so prone to like blaming ourselves or holding on to these glimmers of like goodness and like that we sort of require some huge, dramatic like reason why to leave the relationship, to end a relationship where it’s like well, I have to have a good enough reason, I have to, I have to prove that they’re cheating on me. It’s not enough that I just suspect them and, you know, found someone else’s clothes in the washer or something right, like I have to have like concrete evidence or they have to admit it or this or that. No, no, you don’t. You don’t have to have a quote, unquote good enough reason. Just the fact that you don’t feel like this relationship is what you need and is working for you and is the right thing for you is enough of a reason to move away from the relationship. And if you would like to possibly extend the relationship, then do the work right. Invite that person to do the work with you. Do your own work.
Laura: 42:12
Most of us are toxic because we haven’t done our own work. The reason when we treat people badly it’s not because we’re just monsters. In most cases, it’s because we are reenacting something that is unresolved in our own psyche, where we have an open wound. That is like seeking out a different outcome in order to heal itself, when the reality is that we have to attend to ourselves and give ourselves those things that we are looking for. We have to give ourselves what we long for. We have to give ourselves what we want to feel. We have to really appreciate the things about ourselves that make us feel whole. That make us feel whole, and then we can accept love in a safe way, even though it’s unfamiliar right, because we have a healthy enough foundation. And so it really all starts with ourself, and even with therapy.
Laura: 43:22
I have lots of clients who came to me starting out wanting to do couples therapy and I’m like nope, you need to work on like the conflict in your relationship is based on what’s actually happening in you and in them, and so both of you need to see individual therapists and then, after you’ve both done your own work for a significant period of time, then you can go to couples therapy. Because if both of you are just wounded and reenacting those wounds, no couples therapy is going to help. We have to be healed enough to be able to engage in that in a safe and healthy way healed enough to be able to engage in that in a safe and healthy way.
Michaela : 44:05
Yeah, because it’s going to be really hard for you to even participate in the things that you’re supposed to participate in in couples therapy. I mean, it’s great, it’s going to be helpful to learn how to communicate better. That’s great, it’s going to be good Like you’re not going to lose anything from doing those things. But also, if you don’t really understand why you’re feeling the way you’re feeling, or why you’re acting the way you’re acting, like that’s going to make it really hard to choose a different route. You know, if you’re firmly set in believing what you believe, it’s going to make it really challenging to try to compromise with another person.
Laura: 44:46
Absolutely. We’re going to keep using our same coping mechanisms. Right, if our coping mechanism is to deflect and to avoid and to push people away or to dive into work or to. You know, whatever these coping mechanisms are, that we’re trying to deal with our own stuff, we’re going to keep using those, regardless of what couples therapy tells us to do. Unless we can develop healthier coping mechanisms and be able to tolerate some of the pain and some of the distress that comes with this relationship, we’re not going to be able to be super successful. Like we can maybe use different words and yell a little bit less, hopefully, but even then, because some of these things especially for those of us with trauma and, you know, really toxic stress and difficulty in childhoods, like those things are compulsory.
Michaela : 45:36
Like not a single person is actively making a choice to lose this control and yell and scream and behave badly badly well, what I hear a lot of the time that people say is that they they’re acting in this way but they like have the logic there. Like they know, they can reason with themselves that how they’re acting is illogical and not a thing, but they literally cannot change the way that they’re responding.
Laura: 46:05
In the moment it’s like a disconnect, yeah, and so cause they’re like why am I like this? Why do I keep doing this? And I keep doing the same thing? It’s not helping, I don’t want to do it. I even prepped for it. I visualized myself doing it a different way, but then, as soon as I got in there, I just did the thing again and now I feel like crap. And you know now, right, so it’s.
Laura: 46:27
These are not, it’s not just about choice and control, and I think that’s a really minimizing perspective that a lot of us have heard from even the helping professions. Right, like, make better choices, like you know, and even I say you always have a choice, but the choices to get help, the choices to go and work through it it’s not always that you have a choice in that moment. To you know, behave differently if it’s taken over and if it’s hijacked you in the way that is, you know from a traumatic experience and this is a reenactment Sometimes like you’ve, you lost it. You don’t have that ability to cognitively choose. Um, you know, like your thinking brain is offline and you’re really just acting.
Laura: 47:12
At that point, you’re not really thinking you might even be like watching yourself outside of yourself, saying, what the fuck am I doing? Like stop, why am I doing this, but I’m still doing it. I mean, why am I doing this, but I’m still doing?
Michaela : 47:25
it. I mean, that’s when we need therapy, yeah for sure. Um, that’s heavy stuff that’s hard to start wanting to process. Why am I like this? What led me to be here? I’m, you know, people might think, like I’m broken, like there’s probably, I’m probably not fixable, right, like, why even try? Yeah.
Laura: 47:51
I think you know, I do hear that a lot Like trauma comes with negative cognitions about ourself, and one of those. There’s three themes of those negative cognitions. One is responsibility, meaning this is about me, I’m defective in some way, right. Another is about choice Like I’m helpless, I didn’t have a choice, I can’t do anything differently. I can’t, I’m incapable. And then the third one is safety Like I’m literally this, I’ll die if this happens. I’m in danger, right, if I leave, I’m in danger. Right, if I leave, I’m in danger.
Laura: 48:25
So it’s like we have these negative beliefs about what’s happening and those are a result of trauma. That’s a trauma story because in that moment that you were experiencing whatever trauma is the root cause of this, that one of those things was maybe true from the perspective of you know, I can’t change this, I can’t, I’m, I am helpless. Sometimes that’s true. Sometimes people tell you when they hurt you, that it’s your fault that you’re being hurt, right? So sometimes that’s being told to you that well, you deserve this.
Laura: 49:01
You know, like one of the examples that we were kicking around earlier is you know when, when we yell at our kids or even any, let’s say, adults, like when we yell at somebody and then they try to say like it wasn’t okay for you to talk to me that way, and then you say back to them well, if you didn’t act like that, I wouldn’t have had to yell. Like that’s not true. No, you are responsible for exactly. You’re responsible for keeping yourself under control. I’m not responsible for doing things that make you not yell. Like I can’t make you yell. I can’t make you not yell. That’s not. I don’t have that kind of power. Right? And so when we blame other people for our actions or inactions, and when we’ve experienced that in childhood, when other, when our adults in our lives hurt us and then tell us that it was our fault, that we were hurt and that we deserved it because of the way we are right, we’re being taught literally that we’re defective and that’s false. But how could a child know that?
Michaela : 50:02
they can’t and that I think that’s. That’s part of the reason why we don’t know that we’re in toxic patterns. Right, we don’t understand that there were there because that’s all we’ve ever known.
Laura: 50:18
We don’t know another way and so, like if we saw it as a child and then we continued that into our adult life, we don’t know that there is a different way to do things until we until we do Until we do, yeah, and so when we start to hear those things differently over and over and over and start investing in different information, like you deserve support, you deserve to be treated with dignity and respect. You don’t deserve to be hurt by other people, no matter what you’ve done. You know, I think. And then nobody else deserves to be hurt by you, no matter what they’ve done. You know and we can be accountable for when we hurt people and when they hurt us, they can be accountable Like these.
Laura: 51:01
These things are true and objectively, you know, I think we know that on a level, but like it’s one of those things where sometimes we don’t realize that it applies to us too. We think that applies to everybody else, not me. That’s not my situation. Everybody sure, everybody else gets that, but I don’t get that. That’s how I used to feel.
Laura: 51:18
I used to feel like it’s just not for me. I’m never going to have that. I’m never going to have a life where people treat me with respect. That’s just not a thing that I’m going to get. Everybody else is going to get that good for them, love, that for them, but that’s just not what I get, as if I’m somehow destined to be treated badly in these relationships. I specifically remember saying that and I remember at that time saying I’m never going to get in another relationship again because, like, what’s the point? Right, right, and so, like at that time, when I’m believing these things, you know that’s an indicator that, like I need to, I have things that I need to work through in order to recognize the reality, which is that I am just a human like everybody else and I am deserving of a good and fulfilled life.
Michaela : 52:13
Just like everybody else, not now.
Laura: 52:15
Yeah absolutely.
Michaela : 52:18
You did the work and now you can know that you deserve all of the things.
Laura: 52:24
Yeah, and when I forget, then I need to go talk to my friends. Yeah, I mean, I think that’s a good place to land today.
Michaela : 52:37
This was such a good conversation. I loved kind of digging into this and I feel like I learned something more about myself as well in our talks.
Laura: 52:47
It’s a lot of interesting insight, so thank you so much for going through this with me. This was fun, thank you. Thank you for listening to why Am I Like this. If you like our show, please leave us a rating and review on your favorite podcast platform. Follow the show and share it with your friends. This episode was written and produced by me, laura Wood and Michelle Bieber. Our theme song is Making Ends Meet by Thick as Thieves, and a special thanks to Benevery Counseling and Coaching and Active Healing Psychiatric Services for sponsoring our show.
